Subject:Acid outside the box

Posted by: Maruuk

Date:4/9/2002 10:41:43 PM

Okay, I've got a hunch SoFo is cooking up something big with 4.0. That's why they're taking so long and being especially closed-mouthed.

Sure it's loop-based, and sure there will be lots of interconnectivity and standards, audio and midi support. Duh. But everybody's already got all that. If SoFo just comes out with that, it's nothing but me-too.

They need something as big as the original Acid. Something to counter the new Acid-like sample-loop standards from a variety of companies that are starting to encroach on Acid's unique branding.

This is a thread for pure inspired blue-sky intuition. WHAT is SoFo really cooking up for us in Beantown? If you were listening into their skunkworks meetings...what is their secret plan to recapture the hearts and minds of the Acid faithful worldwide?

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/10/2002 12:31:32 AM

I really hope that they are taking the next upgrade as seriously as you seem to be. Not to diss though. I totally agree with you on the severity the next upgrade of acid is under. I'm still REALLY pissed that VA3 never came into being and it almost seems that if you want the best and most current audio technology you must look elsewhere...ie: Sonar. Right when VV3 came out everyone thought that the audio side would get upgraded after the first revision/bugfix...nope. Total let down. Then you had people talking about how great it was to use sonar in conjunction with the rest of sofo products. Who the hell cares!!! I bought VV3 because it had the best of both worlds...but for audio mainly. Sonar has gone into version 2 and I doubt that the next upgrade[acid 4] will come close to how complete of a package it is. I really want to look at this in a glass is half full perspective but when you go to the sonar site and see everywhere how they boast how "this is better than acid pro" and "acid pro can't do this that and the other thing compared" really bums me out. Did sofo sell them features that were supposed to be in acid 3/vegas 3 but decided to hold off to give Sonar a competitive edge? Sure looks like it to me. I mean who made the F@ckin' stupid decision to add this "Bullsh!t" midi that we got[acid 3]. I never got acid 2.0 because I saw it as stupid upgrade plus 1.0 ran great...actually awesome. I finally see a decent upgrade in 3.0 and was somewhat to moderately impressed when I got it. Sofo F@cked up big time because if they had givin ACid pro 3 full midi with unlimited recording tracks like VA2 had they would have BURIED cubase. Cubase had just came out with version 5 which was THE most BUGGY PIECE OF CRAP known to ever be released. That was IMHO the best oppurtunity for sofo to capitalize and gain a larger market share of audio period. Now that cubase and everyone else is coming out with a new version of their product Sofo better wake up or we'll all be using Sonar soon. At least give us a competitive upgrade to sonar...don't make me shell out even more money[be honest and just admit it,you want me to buy it]. It just amazes me that one of the biggest upgrades of VV3 was a master fader...just like the one seen in acid 3. As of right now these little upgrade setbacks haven't at all hurt my workflow. I think that if you look at the sofo product line as a whole then you see its completeness. But there are some gapeing holes that need patching up if sofo plans to be taken seriously. The newest version of soundforge 6 beta is a good start though. I'm pissed that they didn't add Cd architect features to it like VV3 but if your using VV3 then who cares right? Ya see the catch...? For people who use cubase or logic buying soundforge over wavelab is moot. But if you add cda to it then you might grab a few more people as well. They really do need to think out of the box to keep this product line going.

So...Acid pro 4 needs to take up the slack that Va3 was supposed to be. If you want VV to be the video king and go after adobe premier then fine...I want acid to go after cubase,logic,sequocia,sonar,etc...in the audio market and KEEP IT FOCUSED ON AUDIO DAMMIT!!! If I see a hint of video compositing in the next upgrade I'll FREAK!
Or do that whole rewire thing and split the workload between acid and the next version of vegas...whatever. Goodnight, sorry for the long post.

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: Spirit

Date:4/10/2002 3:38:11 AM

Well, if we're talking blue sky then I'd like complete compatibility between SoFo products.....

1) Full MIDI of course, plus VSTi, DXi, ASIO, Rewire, better effects, a good reverb, bundled instruments etc
2) Compatibility with VV3 - just open your Acid project direct in VV3. Likewise drop your VV3 project into Acid (just the main preview video track)
3) Compatibility with SF - not just opening the wav in SF, but some clever sound construction (Ok, I'm not sure exactly what...)
4) A sample step sequencer. This would be a separate panel like Fruityloops - you drop in the wavs and click the pattern. It'd be up to 64 steps. Before rendering you might have the option to take the track into SF for some deep tweaking.
5) A "super-chopper" which acted like a sequence mangler and re-arranger (like some of the Reaktor instruments). It could, for example, take a 16-step sequence, chop it up into separate wavs then put each wav on a separate channel of the step sequencer.

This is fun !

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: cyberbeat

Date:4/10/2002 9:57:33 PM

They can't even fix what they have out now and you're talking about V4? How about a V3 that doesn't crash constantly? How about better MIDI support (or don't have it at all)? I'm sorry, but SoFo needs to get their act together big time or they'll be history.

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: nlamartina

Date:4/10/2002 11:03:26 PM

All I have to say about this is that if the transition between Vegas 2 and Vegas 3 is any indication what the transition between Acid 3 and Acid 4 will be, then I'd say we have very little to worry about. Lately, it's been abundantly clear that SoFo has been listening very close to its customers' needs and wants, and while it's impossible to please everyone, I think their most recent product upgrades are excellent indicators for Acid 4's eventual success.

Also, where did this whole anti-Acid 3 sentiment originate? The software runs absolutely flawless on my modest machine. Since my latest reformat (I do so every 6-12 months), I've had Acid crash on me only once, and sans the original SP-2 problem with Win2K, I've had zero problems. No jitters, no crackles, no pops, nothing but sonic fidelity and goodness. I tax the program really hard too, with lots of fancy FX and such. Flawless performance.

Personally, I don't need MIDI, so I'm happy as far as that goes. Maybe that's only because I've never really used it extensively, other than writing sheet music with NoteWorthy. I really think some of the criticism is unwarrented though. When Acid 3 came out, the MIDI was a huge surprise. So Cakewalk saw an opportunity and jumped on it with Sonar. Big whoop. You don't think SoFo researches industry trends? Believe me, I have no doubt that Acid 4 will surprise people, whenever it comes out.

Regards,
Nick LaMartina

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/10/2002 11:07:13 PM

I'm keeping my fingers crossed as well.

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:4/10/2002 11:48:46 PM

Ok, so far the most coherent inspired idea is an advanced ReWire-style hookup between Acid and VV. This makes sense as it keeps customers in the SF family, and gives us what we need in terms of audio and video.

I'll jump in with a tangential idea--that if SoFo was really smart, they would launch a very aggressive loop factory operation with the idea of establishing new genres for loops that have been ignored or poorly supported. Right now, dance/hip-hop/electrobeat/house/whatever gets 99% of all the loop attention. Acid competitors are starting to wise up and branch out but not in Acid-compatible discs. SF has the opportunity to grab the reins here and be THE loop source for new. alternative directions that could change the course of music:

1) Country
2) Alternative rock
3) Film scoring (come on, that current orchestral disc REEKS!)
4) New Age
5) Folk, singer-songwriter useful, inspiring progressions
6) Crossover Classical
7) Real progressive jazz, not that silly Acid-jazz psyched-up junk

Yeah, I know, you can't just throw any chords together in loops like midi, Acid can't compete with Band-In-A-Box. BUT. There are a lot of approaches using a limited set of chords as building blocks in folk and jazz. And certainly modal songs are naturals--New Age uses modality a lot.

I'm telling you, if at the same time as 4.0 was announced, a whole new loop initiative was launched taking Acid loops where they've boldly never gone before genre-wise, Acid could be King of the World! A much broader world than 19-year-old DJ's live in, and a lot more lucrative for SoFo. They would have no competitors.

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:4/11/2002 2:58:46 PM

There seems to be a lot of new programs pushing realtime loop manipulation and efx modulation. Also the Reason looper uses many indiviual "slices" to make up one loop, each slice triggered by a separate midi note for maximum flexibility. Anybody think Acid will go in this direction or does Beatslicer handle that well enpugh already?

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: spiral_scratch

Date:4/19/2002 12:02:18 PM

I use a number of SoFo products, Acid, SoundForge, VideoFactory as well as Sonar.

The key issue in terms of designing how the product should mature is going to be how to increase the breadth of functionality offered whilst retaining the incredible ease-of-use that the UI delivers.

Increasingly, with both Acid and VV, SoFo are clearly working to consolidate the engines behind the packages and turn them into a platform onto which they can bolt new stuff. Before getting to where I would like SoFo to go, I need to get out what I would not like to see: please don’t roll Acid and VV into a single product.

Ok, now that that is off my chest, one of the most interesting technology innovations in the last few years has been the maturing of VST and DXi technology and the huge increase in plug-ins of all types that exploit these capabilities.

The suggestion I would make would be to strip Acid right back to the basics: provide a core Acid program that is nothing more than a shell into which the consumer can slot whatever (optional) modules they want. DXi modules would then drive the functionality within the package (as in a logical extension of the current technology used to select and apply effects).

The current version of Acid would be replaced by an Acid engine together with a basic set of plug-ins for inserting a Loop Track, the various Effects, BeatMapper and Chopper, and Mixing. With this base, SoFo could then deliver DXi’s for inserting a Midi Track (linked to an Audio Track with support for Hard or Soft Tone Generators). It would also be possible to incrementally enhance (and charge for) individual modules without needing to provide a full release of the product.

Similar to the way in which it currently works with effects this architecture would also allow consumers to plug-in modules of their choosing. I am very interested in looking into the new technology that Yamaha is trying to push with Cakewalk (Open MIDI Plug-in Technology Panels)...it might be really cool if I could use this within an Acid environment. Similarly, SoFo could exploit their IP by selling modules for use in competing products.

Whilst many folks might balk at shelling out $300 for a bloatware package that contains stuff they never use, there may be many more takers for a $60 entry-level package with basic modules who would be willing to shell out $30 a pop to add-in specialized modules that do exactly what they want.

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: Maruuk

Date:4/19/2002 2:41:05 PM

spiral--That's some pretty advanced thinking. When you scan around this forum, you see a lot guys who never use midi at all, need a sampler plug-in, or audio. Same number of guys that need those things bad! The ability to customize a fully modular environment would de-facto create the simplest and most efficient possible UI. When you wade into the environment of any modern audio multitrack today, it's like taking the pilot's seat of an older 747--in the maze of junk it's hard to find just the tools you need to use for the job at hand. As opposed to the more sophisticated Concorde pilot's layout--a minimum of gauges and controls, but a big video screen that soft-updates to the immediate task at hand. That's the future of control environments.

Subject:RE: Acid outside the box

Reply by: Spirit

Date:4/19/2002 8:05:48 PM

I like the nmodular idea, but isn't this sort of what SoFo do anyway with all the different incarnations of Acid ? Acid, AcidPro, Acid Techno etc ?

One minor function I'd like (hardly "blue sky") is that when you split up[ a track into separate chunks, you can save each chunk as a separate wav file for use elsewhere.

(Maybe this is possible already ?)