Subject:SF6 Beta 2

Posted by: kryten

Date:4/16/2002 10:16:55 PM

It is now downloadable from ftp://files2.sonicfoundry.com and I have a couple of issues:

1. As with the first update to SF5, upgrading to beta 2 recreates the preferences. I had to start all over again. Not good.

2. The SFK files are NOT deleted. This was corrected in an SF5 update, but rears it's ugly head again in both betas. Has anyone else noticed?

3. Still no DAO CD burning. This alone will cause me NOT to upgrade when released. Removing this functionality from SF4.5 with CDA (not to mention it started being missed in SF5) is a step backwards, and NOT forwards. Why should I use VV3 to burn DAO CDs? This is just wrong on *so* many levels. An audio program should be able to burn DAO. OK...I was wrong...TWO steps backwards version-wise. You took my money for CDA and set me back with functionality. I'm not happy. You expect me to upgrade??? I don't think so. I spent a lot of bucks on CDA, and feel abandoned like a lot of other CDA users. I know you didn't make a lot of money on CDA, but what about the loyalty of the people who did spend the money? There is something to be said for loyalty to a company. I'm not so sure now.

4. On a good note, the IE4 check issue during installation is taken care of.

I don't use SF nearly as deeply as a lot of people on this board (I don't use it for nearly all the functionality it has), but I do use it to clean up files and burn them to CD. Not being able to do this as DAO is a crime, and is an injustice to the people who pay for the program. I will stick with 4.5/CDA (burning) and 5 (editing) unless this is added. I know the DAO issue is something a lot of people have brought up passionately, and I agree.

Sonic Foundry, you should be ashamed of yourselves for not letting a "professional" program do something as basic as DAO recording. Some would call DAO a pro feature, though this should be a BASIC feature, especially since it's already included in VV3. Why isn't it included? Waiting for SF7? This makes no sense at all. You may not get there unless it's added *now*. You really need to listen to your users. Your users are your lifeblood, not necessarily your OEM agreements. I know this is a forum and not support, but I await a reply.

A few have ranted about destructive vs. non-desturctive editing, and you have fulfilled their needs in v6. It makes no real difference to me since I create backups, but it is practical. I create backups before doing any editing, so I have something to go back to should something happen. The issue that remains is DAO burning, and not including this in SF6, will lose business for you since the technology is already there.

I love your products, but not including this in SF6 is a very bad move on your part.

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:4/17/2002 12:38:06 AM

Nobody made a SF6 wishlist like they are doing for VV4 or Acid 4[no excuse though]. I can remember people bitching about the nondestructive stuff a while ago. Plus there were people who really freaked about not having the ability to open up CDA from SF5. I had to have a copy of SF 4.5 and CDA installed as well as SF5 to get the job done. A total LEAP backwards from SF4.5 IMHO.

It just comes down to the HUGE push that sofo is giving VV3. They leave out key features in certain products[acid "not so pro" 3...and now SF6]. Just so that if you want that all around experience you MUST purchase all three. What are they actually afraid of being in the lead in the audio market for a change. Or are they just waiting for "Wavelab 4/5/6 or Sonar 2.0/3.0/4.0" to do it first?

Does the CDA features work well in the VV3 LE version that comes with it[if at all]. I say that anyone that buys SF6 should get the FULL unlocked version of CDA features in their VV3 LE. To me that would be at least a decent way of saving face while promoting VV3.

Are you listening SOFO?

How does that one sound people? It would be almost identical if not a bit better of a deal that you got with SF4.5. AND you get a multirack/video blah blah to boot!

SOFO save face and make sure all CDA features in VV3 Le are accessible. That IMHO CAN be done by the release date.[If it hasn't already...ya never know]

What do you guys think? later.

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: kryten

Date:4/17/2002 12:41:34 AM

I've updated my rant, not that it makes any difference...

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: doctorfish

Date:4/17/2002 2:20:32 AM

I'll second that SHTUNOT. It wouldn't be a perfect solution, but if VV LE had
DAO CD burning capabilities, I could live with it.

It's my guess, though, that anything labeled "LE" won't
have any CD burning functions unless they are of the TAO variety.

Hope I'm wrong.

Dave

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: CDM

Date:4/17/2002 9:56:02 AM

I totally agree. I think that LE should have DAO built in to make up for it being a VV3 only solution.

SF should SERIOUSLY think about this!

It should be in Sound Forge, but since it isn't, LE would suffice, I should think.

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: CDM

Date:4/17/2002 9:58:40 AM

1) this is a beta. You have to uninstall the previous one first before you update to the next. This WILL reset your preferences. A pain, yes, but that makes sense to me. It shouldn't be like this in the final version.

2) This is in the File prefs. Check delete temp files on close to remedy this. BTW, why do you want to delete .sfk files??? It's such a pain to have it build them all the time.

3) put it in LE, at the very least, SF!

4) good.

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: kryten

Date:4/17/2002 11:06:17 PM

1. The installation detected my previous installation and asked if I wanted to update it (not uninstall it and then do a fresh install). Saying yes should not reset the preferences. Uninstalling the first beta wasn't an option during the installation. When the SF5 second beta came out, the preferences were preserved. Only when updating the final 5 with the first update, preferences were reset. This caused a lot of grief for a lot of people.

2. I didn't catch that one. When the SF5 update that deleted the SFK files came out, it did it automatically without having to check an option. My bad for not catching that one. I would have thought the same school of thought would have applied to a newer version.

3. It still belongs in SF6.

4. ;)

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/18/2002 1:32:03 AM

HA!!...You guys just taught me something. Everytime, I upgrade Sound Forge I first do a full uninstall of the previous version and then install the new version. The part I hated about this, was having to go set all my preferences back to the way I like to work. I guess I just assumed the preferences got wiped out when you upgraded to a newer version.....Thanks for letting me see the light...lol

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: CDM

Date:4/18/2002 10:01:01 AM

with beta versions you should ALWAYS uninstall first!! Not so with retail versions, though. You should just be able to update the software.

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: dcomo

Date:4/18/2002 9:39:29 PM

Charlesdem, you are correct in saying that you have to remove the old version before installing the new. However, if you are just using SF 6.0 as a preview version (and hopefully not _real_ production), installing on top of the old version is not going to harm the install or your machine.

I've done it and don't see any problems as of yet.

My rant:

I work for a software company and I make sure that I listen to my customers and take down any suggestions that they have. Later when we are in development, that list comes out and we try to implement as many of the features as we possibly can. This always makes the customers 100% happy since they know that their words are getting listened to.

Now, unfortunately, SoFo doesn't listen, doesn't care, or the people that we need to influence don't read this board. Before Sound Forge gets too close to the release date, we should petition them with letters right to their office asking for the DAO feature.

No matter how many times we all vent on this board, they don't listen. Will they listen when they receive a few dozen letters a day? Possibly, as it will never hurt to try...

Is SF 6.0 worth the upgrade? Yes, if you don't have Vegas to do your non-destructive editing. If you do, you can probably skip the upgrade. Do we really need MPEG1 and MPEG2 support in an audio program? I thought those were video formats...???

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: rraud

Date:4/28/2002 6:13:13 PM

I fully agree kryten and SHTUNOT, and CDA should be included with SF-6. In fact... SoFo should give us the SF-6 upgrade for nothing since SF-5 was so lame, a downgrade if you ask me, and yes I'm still pissed off at them too.
However, I am impressed with the SF-6 beta so far. Check out the new "graphic fade", now it allows you to do some volume envelope type changes.

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:4/28/2002 7:01:23 PM

Hmm. Graphic fade is in my installation of 4.5XP. I've been using it for years now.

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: rraud

Date:4/29/2002 7:54:22 PM

Yes I know, but it's more functional now. Before you could only attenuate from 100%. Now it's selectable: You can raise and lower from the 200 & 400% settings. Check it out. It's usefull to me anyway.
The customizable toolbar is real handy too..... At least it should be.. It does'nt work on my beta version. (2)
PS- I'm still pissed off about the CDA though.

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:5/1/2002 11:16:18 PM

A reflextion back on the past:

I remember when Sound Forge was first released and I was so impressed by all the Pro features it offered, over ProTools "Sound Designer II" that I was currently using. It was receiving all kinds of audio awards from magazines. At that time, Cubase was nothing more than a midi sequencer, and the name "Wavelab",or "Nuendo" didn't even exist. Cubase soon developed a pro mixer section, multi-track audio features, automatible mixer section and VST plugins....yada..yada..yada. Wavelab, was released with all the functionality of Sound Forge, except CD burning capabilities (ie CD Architect). SF developed Acid Pro. Wavelab further grew, giving 24/96 editing ability,plugin chainer, and a multi-track non-destructive redbook cd burning options, ....SF developed Vegas Pro and then Sound Forge dumped CD architect,...Steinberg developed Recycle and then Nuendo and added Virtual instruments and "Rewire" technology. Sound Forge stopped winning any awards, or even an honorable mention.

I guess the point of my history lesson is that Sonic Foundry is always the first to develope innovative ideas to get everybody excited about their products, but seems to fail in keeping those innovative ideas above the competition and just moves onto a new idea, instead of perfecting what they already have. For example, look at Wavelab. It was developed after Sound Forge, but now has more functions than Sound Forge, meaning Steinberg has devoted more resources, in less time to the development of their products. How do you go from being a technology leader, to being a technology follower with the same product? Sonic Foundry has perfected this technique in all their products. Like the audio features it seems like once they get all the video features to a 90% level of what everybody wants, they'll move onto something else....say "Unified Security View" (USV)????

Is this a trend I'm seeing?

Subject:RE: SF6 Beta 2

Reply by: zendar

Date:5/2/2002 10:17:33 AM

haha - what rednroll said, a perfect summation of sonic flounderings "strategy". I love sf products look/feel/ease of use almost as much as I dislike everything from Steinberg, but when are sf gonna swallow their pride and listen to the requests repeated over and over in the vegas/acid/sforge forums for the BLEEDIN OBVIOUS ie cda in forge, acid compat in vegas, vst/asio support in all etc etc