Avid DV Express, Vegas, Etc...

bakerbud9 wrote on 4/12/2002, 11:27 AM

Hi All,

Avid DV Express claims real-time performance with no additional hardware required. Just a standard IEEE 1394 interface card. It seems that DV Express is a software-only solution to DV editing that relies solely on the CPU power of the computer to achieve real-time performance.

Of course, this is also the motivation behind Sonic Foundry's decision to make Vegas hardware-netural. In that sense, it seems that Vegas is in the same category as DV Express.

So my question is: what kind of processing power is really needed to achieve true real-time effects. For example, real-time (a) cross-dissolve, (b) color-correction, (c) 2D DVE, or (d) alpha-keyed rolling credit. The Avid website says a Pentium III 750Mhz or better is required. I have a dual Pentium III 850 Mhz, and Vegas can play DV in real-time out to the IEEE port, but any effects (a), (b), (c), or (d) require non-realitme rendering before I can squirt them out the IEEE port in real time.

Does this mean that Vegas is slower than Avid DV? Or does Avid DV have the same problem? In otherwords, does Avid DV require users to render effects before squirting out the IEEE port in real time?

If that is true, at what CPU speed can the machine do (a), (b), (c), and (d) in real-time without the need for non-realitme renders? Anyone got a machine out there that can do that?

Sincerely,

Nate

Comments

Control_Z wrote on 4/12/2002, 1:10 PM
Don't fall for the hype. Neither Xpress DV nor FCP3 can do anywhere near as much real time DV output as VV3. What they're calling 'real time' refers to the small lo-res preview window on the computer monitor. Nothing new, but some reviewers seem ecstatic over it.

There are currently no true software only real time systems, and there are none on the horizon. I think the necessary hardware will probably be built into the CPU (SSE10?) before it can really be done.
bakerbud9 wrote on 4/12/2002, 1:32 PM

That is the impression I got, too, i.e., that the "real-time" claim was hype!

How close to true real-time do you think an AMD MP 2000+ would get you?

Sincerely,

Nate
swarrine wrote on 4/12/2002, 4:30 PM
As far as I know the only true real time output to DV for $1,500 or less is DV Storm by Canopus. The problem of course is you have to use Premiere or Rex/Storm edit. Neither one of those programs comes close to VV3 - IMHO, and I own Storm, but use VV3. Also, if you pile enough effects on Storm, it will need to render even for a preview.

Ideally, Canopus & SF would get together and offer a software/hardware package. I am fairly sure it won't happen, but it would be nice. Add EDL cross software/platform - import/export, 3D and other plugins and you would have the perfect system.
MaxH wrote on 4/12/2002, 6:29 PM
Agreed. Storm does real time output to DV really well, but...Premiere is a pain and if you do anything fancy you do need to render, even for a preview.
I prefer to get real time preview with the best NLE I have used ( Vegas ) and render
overnight.

Max
bakerbud9 wrote on 4/12/2002, 6:50 PM
I have a $4000 Matrox DigiSuite right now. It does wonderful 4:2:2 in true realtime. Of course, my only editing options are Premiere, edit*, and Incite if I want to use it! I have tried edit*, and actually disliked it more than Premiere! Premiere works, but it is a clunky and fragile application. I have started doing DV projects in Vegas. I think I might even be able to get away with doing 4:2:2 projects in Vegas by using the DA-MAX+ box to get SDI input to the computer over the IEEE connector (yes, I know this actually converts the 4:2:2 to 4:1:1 -- unhappy about that, but I may be able to get away with it for a while). If I can build a software-only system that will render things like color correction, cross dissolves, and titles in real-time, then I think I can safely begin to consider ditching my DigiSuite and working exclusively in Vegas. So I am trying to get feedback from people that might have 2 Ghz systems to see what kind of performance they get. I'd hate to go out and buy one only to find out it wasn't going to have enough horsepower.
-nate-
DougHamm wrote on 4/13/2002, 11:52 PM
Really, previewing even to a full-resolution preview window at full framerate is possible with fast Athlons and P4's. I can maintain framerate during dissolves, titles and such on my XP1800+, but layered effects are only full framerate at smaller preview window sizes like 360x240.

I wonder though whether even the fastest computer can actually preview _out_to_firewire_ in VV in realtime. There may be some issue in the rendering process that essentially caps the framerate during render. When I tripled my computer speed a few months back I definately noticed a difference with the preview window, but noticed little difference through the firewire port.

-Doug
HPV wrote on 4/14/2002, 2:11 AM
and Vegas can play DV in real-time out to the IEEE port, but any effects (a), (b), (c), or (d) require non-realitme rendering before I can squirt them out the IEEE port in real time.
----------------------
You need to go to Options/Prefs/Ext. Monitor and check the "recompress edited frames" box. Now everything on the timeline will go out the 1394 port during preview without rendering. The framerate won't be a full 30 Fps. FCP and DV Express can't do this, plus tons of other stuff.

Craig H.

swarrine wrote on 4/14/2002, 6:05 AM
One day you will be able to preview out full frame real time, however, SF needs to add sound to the preview firwire out. Right now you need to "hotwire" from your soundcard to an analog in on your cam or deck.

I am guessing we will have 4 gig cpu's in the next year or two and that should do it. Start lobbying SF now to add sound to firewire out in preview. Best case would be a switch (on/off) for those who have slower computers.
VideoArizona wrote on 4/14/2002, 1:27 PM
Just got back from NAB...and had the opportunity to meet with Dave Hill. I did suggest that the VV3 development team look into background rendering. As an example, Fast's Studio software does an excellent job of utilizing the horsepower of today's computer systems to background render as well as provide interface power. I would like to see VV3 have the same opportunity...to be able to background render as needed (user chooses what percentage of CPU time to use), and with dual processor boards becoming more of a reality, a user can split the tasks between CPU's.

I think this is an elegant solution to the rendering vs real time issue. AND, it would give us PC Vegas users tremendous bragging rights against FCP!!!

I also asked for true color correction tools, image mapping on the reverse side of 3D effects like page turns, etc..

Dave did hint that there is much more coming in the future...and he's quite proud of the developing team working on VV3. I must agree with his assessment. As a long time producer/shooter/editor, with experience from the old 2" tape days to currently owning 3 edit systems, I'm pleased with my decision to purchase VV3. It astounds me with the power and flexibility it offers. I'm discovering more uses everyday.

FWIW,

David
www.video-arizona.com