Great insight. I made an SVCD but my set top DVD player doesn't play those. However, my set top player is reported compatable with all the DVD formats.

I'm going to wait until at least June before I buy anything. There are compelling arguments for both formats. I'm going to wait to see if the +R format ever appears on the market and how it compares with -R before I make a final decision.

My main goal is to make sure my expectations are in line with reality.

Any other experiences?

Well, the + technology has faster finalizing times.

DVD-R = 2 - 5 MINUTES
DVD+R = 25 - 45 SECONDS

AB

I just completed my first big project with VV3. It was a childrens musical shot on 3 dv cams all free wheeling. No director, shot sheets or rehearsal. Needles to say it was fun! I absolutely love VV3 and the quality from start to finish within the DV format. All renders were done to NTSC DV .avi's The final was actually about 4 generations deep in the render process and it held up fantastic. I was very disappointed in the DVD-r however. I used Sonic Solutions MyDVD and the DV tape that I spit out of VV is much much better than the DVD I burned. I am going to experiment with some other DVD authoring tools in hopes that the quality will be better. At this point, I'm not real impressed. If anyone has any comments on this, I sure would appreciate them.

Thanks,
JAB

Glad you're enjoying it. You very often get to spitting enamel chips - especially with DVD - but that's being in the forefront, as they say.

Almost always, the quality of the DV tape will exceed that of a DVD, even if the DVD is made to the best possible standard! The MPEG-2 format, which is what the DVD plays, contains much less information than the DV format. Perhaps one day, when DVDs have a capacity of around 12Gb, we'll be able to fit it all on, but at the moment we have to bludgeon all that fine detail into something that *will* fit. The price we pay is loss of quality.

What you have to do is to ensure that you lose as little quality as possible, and it sounds to me that you used settings in the MPEG encoding process that were designed to save maximum space rather than retain maximum quality.

Would you like to tell us what encoder you used and its settings? We might then be able to reverse your disappointment.

-Pete

Ralph,

> I made an SVCD but my set top DVD player doesn't play those. <

You might want to consider getting another set top DVD player. Many current models of inexpensive DVD players, including quite a few that cost less than $100, can play a full range of CD-video formats, including VCDs, XVCDs, SVCDs, XSVCDs, and miniDVDs.

It is that last format, miniDVD, which is sometimes called cDVD, that I was going to suggest you make, in order to preview what your DVDs will look like when you do get a DVD burner. You can make a miniDVD with your present CDR or CDRW burner. First you put your video in the DVD MPEG2 format. Then you can use any of several software applications, including Ulead DVD MovieFactory, or DVDit SE/PE, or SpruceUp, or Nero, to burn the miniDVD on your CD burner. There are several links to instructions for burning DVDs or miniDVDs using those applications at:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/author.htm#burndvd

Since a CD has much less space than a DVD, you get much less playing time on a miniDVD; only 15 minutes to maybe 18 minutes top. But you do get full DVD quality, since the miniDVD is just a small DVD.

The majority of DVD players can't play miniDVD disks. They fail to play a miniDVD either because they misidentify it (as a VCD, SVCD or Audio CD), or the DVD player's CD-R(W) reader is too slow. The DVD Player must be able to "identify" the miniDVD as an ordinary DVD-Video disc, and it must read it at 8x. Unfortunately many DVD players can manage only a 2x CD-reading speed. But there is good news. In today's market there are a lot of DVD players that can play miniDVDs. A current list of players that have been reported as capable of playing miniDVDs is at the following URL. The list is quite long, and you will have to click "Next" at the bottom of the list to see a second page and click "Next" at the bottom of that page to see the conclusion of the list. If the long URL doesn't work because it is fragmented, you can go to http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php and in the Search list, put a check in the miniDVD checkbox. You can also use that list to find out a wealth of information about nearly a thousand DVD player models and you can click on each model to open a separate page with more information for it, including forum messages posted by owners of that model. It can help you shop for a DVD player.

http://www.vcdhelp.com/dvdplayers.php?DVDname=&DVDselect=&Submit=Search&minidvd=1&Search=Search&price=100000&rate=0&comments=0

There is additional information about miniDVDs at:

http://www.vcdhelp.com/minidvd.htm

While you are deciding what format your DVD burner should use, you might want to consider trying out a more versatile DVD player. Admittedly, miniDVDs will not play in many DVD players, but for those players that do play them, they have a lot of advantages. Their playing times are appropriate for "shorts" and other uses, and miniDVDs can be quite economical, while delivering full DVD quality.

-- Burton --

My $.02

I agree with Burtons advice. It's also a very safe bet.

In the last year I've been using multiple editing systems, Pinnacle dv500 (great analog to DV hardware), Premiere, VV3, and a slew of Mpeg2/DVD authoring software: MyDVD, DVDit, and Spruceup with my at Pioneer A03 DVD-RW. I have been dealing mostly with analog video source, so I know where you're coming from.

I feel confident that you WILL BE DISAPPOINTED with the quality of the DVDs created. I may be wrong, but most authoring software that comes bundled with the DVD-RWs are very cheap and buggy, and are famous for misrepresentation (go to MyDVD forum & look at the messages).

If you have already compressed this video with VV3 MainConcept, the quality is pretty good. But the problem rests in how you will get that MPEG2 video authored WITHOUT having the cheap bundled software REENCODE it lowering the quality. There is Spruceup, which is great, but discontinued, since Apple recently bought most of the DVD authoring software companies.

SOOO, my advice would be to wait a few months before you waste a bundle ($400) on a DVD-RW & bundled software that you will most likely be disappointed with, not to mention that RELIABLE blank DVDRs cost $6-7 a piece. The $2.00 ones are hit & miss, not to mention that just burning one takes 30 minutes at 2x, or 1 hour if doing a DVDRW at 1x.

READ-UP on the differences between DVD-RW & DVD+RW. Finalizing time?--That a red heiring. There's much more significant things to worry about.

As I said earlier, Burton offered great advice -- buy and additional DVD Player, since it sounds like you will be playing these anyway. You can pickup a great DVD player for UNDER $100. and then use the software you have now to burn GOOD quality VCDs(60-100min), SVCD(35-60min), XVCDs(35-100min) or MiniDVDs (10-15min), on CDRW at only $.40/each, and much faster than DVDs, it's a much safer bet, not to mention, you'll still have hair left. In the future, after things settle, and we get better, faster software MPEG2 encoders & Authoring Software, it may then be more worth while.

Look at the links he listed, and keep in mind price & brand name HAVE LITTLE to do with their capabilties to play SVCDs, XVCDs, and MiniDVDs, buy Model number specific. Personally I bought an APEX 1500 from Amazon for $79.00. Which plays just about anything you throw at it, except MiniDVDs, but VERY few do, as Burton suggested. Sort the list by top User Rated Models.

Remember, These are just my opinions, if they help, use them, if not, toss them. No pressure.

Jeffy82

I have certainly not been disappointed with the DVD's that I have authored and I am now doing so commercially with the tools that folks are mentioning.

I am now encoding with VV3 for most applications. As you know, SF and Main Concept are constantly working on the encoding for DVD's and I am confident that you will see more improvements from them soon that will continue to improve the bitrates etc. Right now you need to be encoding from VV3 with a VBR avg. rate of around 6MB for most general sources. Higher for some lower for others. For some special encodes I do use other tools, but rarely now with the quality of the SF/MC encodes.

I am authoring in DVDit SE. It does not change the quality of the video as it does not re-encode it. No it is not as simple to use as most people would like, but once you are proficient in it you can produce a very good product.

I burn DVD+RW. I would like to be using the +R format for better reflectivity, but right now we are waiting. DVD-R is also a good option. The format of your DVD will not change its quality in most circumstances.

The quality of my DVD's rival a Hollywood movie DVD as long as my source is as good as theirs.

Would you like to tell us what encoder you used and its settings? We might then be able to reverse your disappointment.

-Pete

The rendering I did within VV was using the NTSC DV template for .avi's. I used best quality at every level. The breakdown is just as Jeffy82 suggests, in the reencode process that MyDVD uses. I tried rendering my project to MPG2 within VV using the Mainconcept codec (still looks good within VV at this point) and the results were similar. MyDVD still insists on reencoding for the DVD burn. There must be better DVD authoring tools than I am using because the DVD's you rent look pretty dog gone good! Does it take hundreds or thousands of dollars to get to that level? If so, I'll be content with DV Tape.

Thanks for the tips guys!
JAB

kkolbo........

Thanks for the feedback. DVDit SE sounds worth investigating. The only problem is the pricetag of $220-$350. I would gladly spend it if I were absolutely sure of the results. Anyone else have an opinion?

JAB

There's Ulead's DVD Workshop and MovieFactory. MovieFactory is good enough for most people, I'd say, and it's cheap. DVD Workshop is its big brother and you can get a bit fancier with it, I suppose. Trials are available in both cases.

If you should settle on DVD Workshop, that too will try and re-encode. But you can beat it. Simply choose settings (bitrates) within Workshop that are the same or better than those you used to encode in Vegas and it will leave your MPEG alone. Don't try any trimming in Workshop either, as this will also trigger a re-encode.

I'd try MovieFactory first and see it it's enough for you.

-Pete

I have the HP I200 DVD Burner which does +RW and +R. So far I've done video from my JVC MiniDC camcorder to DVD and I think the results are outstanding!! I'm using the DVD authoring software MyDVD which came with the burner, very limited but it does the job. I'm kinda looking and waiting to see what DCD Authoring software to buy.

As far as compatibility the +R discs have not failed me yet. Even a friend of mine who has a Toshiba DVD player who says it won't play ANY non-commercial discs played my +R disc perfectly.

MadMikey

Peter,

Thanks I'm downloading Ulead Movie factory right now! I hope it works better than MyDVD. Keep in mind, I'm extremely picky. I have nearly 20 years of TV post production experience and coming from a broadcast environment to a home non-linear one, is quite an adjustment.

Thanks for all the info!
JAB

I burn DVD's with a A03 and DVDit PE and ReelDVD. Quality is excellent, and compatabiltiy with set top players has been great.

Peter,

Thanks for the tip on Ulead. I tried Movie factory and the video quality was dramatically better than MyDVD. For some unknown reason it did not print the audio though. I'm doing another test on a short file to see if that problem is repeated. I'm going to download DVD Workshop to see if it is worth the extra $$$. At least I know that it is possible to get the quality better than what I have been seeing.

Thanks,
JAB

A new program that offers good features for the money is DVD Complete by Dazzle . Costs $99.
It will encode your .avi's (Haven't done that myself,so can't say about encode quality) or will accept MPG files you have encoded with 3rd party encoder. It's wizard driven and will automatically build menus and motion buttons etc + design sleeves for CD/DVD case. If you are more creative you can make up your own menus including colour, opacity etc of background,highlighted & selected buttons.
Also supports audio on menus & upto 8 (I think) overtures or first play items (You know copyright warnings etc that auto start when you insert disc before menus come up)

Minus points = Doesn't support AC-3 audio (but for $99 what do you want). If you are in PAL land you are in luck because it will let you use compressed MPEG-1 layer II audio (poor man's Dolby).

Vegas + Ulead Movie Factory + Nero + HP 200i +R/+RW = excellent.

Al

What does Nero add to the process?

The reason that I use Nero is that I've used it for years and I like it, I feel like it is giving me more control since I get to see what goes on the disc and where it gets put. I've also heard that some folks using Ulead products are getting pauses at chapter points with The Ulead prods doing the burning and also I don't want to reauthor every time I play with some vob files. Sometimes in my work I have to re-edit DVDs that the company I work for owns the rights to. You need a separate burning prog under these circumstances.

Hope this helps...

Al

OK...

I think I have a better handle on this since yesterday. I am having very good results using Ulead's Movie Factory. I think it will probably take care of most needs. I am having a couple of problems with it though.

1. It appears that the disk pauses occasionally. I suspect this is caused by using General, Data grade DVD-R disks. At $1.39 I thought it wise to use them during these experiments. I also have a year old cheap model Toshiba DVD player. No progressive scan or any really fancy stuff. I will burn one with a video grade disk and see what happens.

2. Audio only comes out PCM. My DVD player must be toggled in the setup menu between bitstream and PCM. Most rental DVD's use bitstream for dolby digital 5.1 but Ulead encodes using PCM. Is there a way to force the audio to bitstream? I doubt that the $44 Ulead Movie Factory supports this. That's ok I guess.

Over all, I am very pleased with the quality of movie factory.

JAB

Al, I'm still fairly new to this and am trying to find the best way to go from VV3 to DVD. Like many people here, I've had good success using the MC MPEG2 encoder in VV3 and then using Movie Factory to burn it on the DVD. Results were excellent in my few trials. But, if you use Nero to burn the DVD, what function does Movie Factory perform for you?

Very easy to make chapters with DVD Movie Factory. Also simple to have multiple videos on one DVD each with there own sub menu structure, even different background music for each menu if you wish. I haven't tried with Nero, does Nero do chapters that easy?

On the "Finish" page of DVD MF, there are three options for what you want to have the prog do with your mpeg file. The first is "Create DVD folders". That is what I do and then DVD MF makes a series of what are called vob files and their associated files. You can't just burn the mpegs to a DVD. Hopefully at some point, Sonic will add the capability to author in Vegas. If you look at a DVD in Windows explorer you'll see what the vobs look like. I then use Nero to burn these files to the disc. Some people have said that DVD MF doesn't support +R yet. That doesn't bother me because Nero does the burning. Nero does not author, only burn (in my case).

Hope this helps...

Al

P.S. Nero is a free demo download.