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Subject:Wasting Time...
Posted by: krunchman
Date:3/17/2002 2:42:28 AM
I'm not a computer newbie, nor am I looking to be "Mutt" Lange. I have a life and want to do other things besides spend months tweaking tunes. However, I would like to more EFFECTIVELY take the mountain of mp3's I have and slap them on CD-R's. I have already done this thousands of times in the past without any adjustment to the decompressed .wav's whatsoever. With the erratic volumes of different discs and peoples rips, I would obviously like more improved flow, closer matching volume, and reasonable similarity to the original recorded track. (Before anyone hops on the typical "know-it all" tirade about how mp3 is a compressed format, inferior to .wav, and why would anyone want to ever own one, I understand that, but many of these files are way out of print and I don't own the vinyl or CD. I need constructive helpful ideas, not redundant opinionism.) I have toyed with normalization alone, and have also tryed coupling that with different levels of hammering, graphic dynamics, switching to higher bit rate prior to any editing, pan/expand, yada, yada, yada. Moral of the story: it all ends up sounding seemingly adequate on the PC, then like crap when burned to a disc and played on a stereo or car CD. Too soft, no punch, flat, and if I switch to FM after using the disc player, I 'bout blow out my ears from the radio. Same goes for employing "quick fix" normalizers like MP3Gain prior to de-compressing and ripping. In a lot of ways the CD's I made in the past without doing anything but de-compressing to .wav and ripping sound fabulous and maybe I should just live with the sometimes stark volume irregularities and continue adjusting the volume knob for every song. If someone has realistic, helpful ideas about using this program to my benefit I would appreciate it. Specifically, what settings you use and the order in which you use them to do what I'm talking about, the results you got, etc. etc. etc. |
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Subject:RE: Wasting Time...
Reply by: Chienworks
Date:3/17/2002 6:42:54 AM
Normalize alone isn't necessarily going to fix everything. Normalize increases the level until the loudest peak hits 0dB. If you have one spike in the file that's 12dB higher than the rest, then the rest of the song will still end up at -12dB. Look for these sorts of things first and use dynamics to reduce them before normalizing. You might also want to look at the new wave hammer in version 5 which is supposed to automate the compressing/normalizing process. |
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Subject:RE: Wasting Time...
Reply by: krunchman
Date:3/18/2002 4:42:31 AM
Thanks for your input. Are you talking about the Master for 16 bit option? That has the threshold of 6 the compression of 1? I appreciate any help or ideas I can get. I would indeed like to get a better flow of volume from song to song. I have, I suppose, learned that sometimes what sounds loud as hell and crappy on the PC sounds great on a real stereo, I just wish I knew an average setting in a range of a notch here to here to use to get the desired results... |
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Subject:RE: Wasting Time...
Reply by: dbarry
Date:3/18/2002 7:21:38 AM
It's all a waste of time , ain't it? But really, it sounds as if you already know more than most people on these this topic. A few small suggestions: if you like that FM sound, try to using the SF Normalize RMS to -6db - very loud. This is not too different from what transmit engineers do to maximize legal signal levels on 'rock' stations. Then, be consistant, and do it to all the recordings. Also if you want to waste some more time, run the mp3s though a smiley face EQ, and see if that gets closer to what you want. Also maybe get better speakers on your computer, to help the testing before you burn CDRs. Cheers db |
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Subject:RE: Wasting Time...
Reply by: krunchman
Date:3/19/2002 9:06:57 AM
Thanks for the ideas dbarry. BTW, I did a bit of study myself based on CD's I have, and have determined a kind of pattern for db levels on the factory made CD's if anyone cares for more useless information. Pop, Rock & RB tracks generally has an average album overall volume of 93.2-95.4 db, Jazz around 92.3-93.5 db, Classical and Soundtrack around 88.1-91.2 db. Not that this can be used to anyone's benefit, but I tried matching for a homemade CD and it sounded pretty close. While we're at it, I know this will probably be reasonably debated, due to the compression and sound loss issues, but... What bitrate do you guys generally use? I know what the compression ratios are, and have seen some people are content with 128, and that some are crazy about as little compression possible ie: 256 and 320. I just wanted to see what you guys use/thought. Secondly, do you convert ones you obtain from others that don't match your preferences for bitrate/stereo settings even though it might mean a loss of fidelity? Is there any reason to decompress to 24/32 bit before reencoding? Sorry for all the questions just looking for ideas... Take care, krunchman |
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Subject:RE: Wasting Time...
Reply by: Chienworks
Date:3/19/2002 10:06:40 AM
I tend to use 160Kbps for MP3 files. I experimented with several different rates and decided that i couldn't hear any diffrence worth worrying about above 160. It's about a 9:1 compression so it still saves lots of space. I can fit about 15 commercial albums on each the MP3 CDs i carry around in my car with me. I would say it makes no sense to re-encode a file to go to a higher bitrate. It cannot improve the quality of the recording at all, but it can make it worse through conversion losses. If someone sends me a lower bitrate file i just keep it the way it is. |
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Subject:RE: Wasting Time...
Reply by: HowhiMZ3
Date:3/19/2002 10:44:29 AM
I use Razorlamew/Lame 3.91 for my encoding. Encoding rates/settings for MP3 has been debated endlessly: http://www.r3mix.net/ What are the correct presets (using Lame) for "optimal" MP3 bitrates w/respect to fidelity and loss? 128-160 may be fine for Winamp or portables, but minimum of 192 should be used for replay on any reasonably good audio equipment. I personally have gone from CBR192-256 to VBR w/ "--alt-preset extreme" for my archives. With respect to "reworking" your existing MP3s, I would not waste time with anything encoded less then 192: too much loss to make anything good from it. Download a better version. For >192, use Lame to decode, bring into SF, and have a party! List of recommended LAME settings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Updated January 23, 2002 Important: You need one of the newer compiles to use all of the "--alt-preset xy" settings, for instance Dmitry's or SMPman's compiles of December 15, 2001 and later, or better yet, LAME 3.90 stable or later compiles. These settings are for LAME 3.90 stable and newer versions (Download from mitiok or from Dibrom.) ------------------------------------------------- CBR 320 (highest possible LAME quality): ------------------------------------------------- --alt-preset insane (bitrate: 320 kbit) ------------------------------------------------- VBR (variable bitrate) settings: ------------------------------------------------- Very High Quality + --alt-preset extreme (bitrates 220-270 kbit/s -- usually averages around 256kbps) Faster (Very Slightly Lower Quality): --alt-preset fast extreme (bitrates roughly the same as above) Very High Quality --alt-preset standard (bitrates 180-220 kbit/s -- usually averages around 192 kbps) Faster, slightly lower quality possible: --alt-preset fast standard (bitrates roughly the same as above) High Quality (Due to the new "--alt-preset standard", the "--r3mix" setting is obsolete.) --r3mix (average bitrate ~190kbit/s (150-230kbit/s) ------------------------------------------------- ABR (average bitrate) settings: (128 kbit ABR: roughly the same filesize as 128 kbit CBR) ------------------------------------------------- ABR Setting tuned from 320 kbps down to 80 kbps --alt-preset <bitrate> Example: --alt-preset 200 ABR averaging at 128 kbit/s --alt-preset 128 or (see http://www.ff123.net/cbr128.html ): --abr 128 -h --nspsytune --athtype 2 --lowpass 16 --ns-bass -8 --scale 0.93 ------------------------------------------------- CBR (constant bitrate) settings: ------------------------------------------------- 320 kbit/s CBR Highest Lame Quality: --alt-preset insane or --alt-preset cbr 320 256 kbit/s CBR --alt-preset cbr 256 192 kbit/s CBR --alt-preset cbr 192 160 kbit/s CBR --alt-preset cbr 160 128 kbit/s CBR --alt-preset cbr 128 or (see http://www.ff123.net/cbr128.html ): -h --nspsytune --athtype 2 --lowpass 16 --ns-bass -8 --scale 0.93 96 kbit/s CBR --alt-preset cbr 96 80 kbit/s CBR --alt-preset cbr 80 ------------------------------------------------- Useful links ------------------------------------------------- (- Latest LAME compiles -) Dmitry's compiles SMPman's compiles Dibrom's compiles (MP3 Information sites) www.r3mix.net Dibrom's "Project Mayhem" (MP3 Forums) r3mix.net forum Project Mayhem MP3/mp3PRO forum (Exact Audio Copy) - the best CD ripper & encoding (& tagging) to MP3 during ripping Official site Tutorial for EAC EAC database EAC forum (Easy Frontend for Lame) RazorLame Presets for RazorLame (right mouseclick to download) (Rename / ID3 Tagging) Renatager (MP3 Gain) - lossless changing of gain ! Official site Basic Guide to avoid clipping (How to) Burn an MP3 CD Reencode mp3 (high bitrate with ID3 tags) to mp3 (low bitrate) and include tags to new mp3 file (Analyzing MP3) EncSpot Tool for ABXing, Blind listening tests ff123's site: Discussion of Audio Compression MP3Utility You can find the same list at the Project Mayhem forum |
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Subject:RE: Wasting Time...
Reply by: krunchman
Date:3/19/2002 3:15:10 PM
Very informative stuff. Thanks a bunch! |
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Subject:RE: Wasting Time...
Reply by: beetlefan
Date:3/23/2002 3:56:16 AM
Krunchman, I hear ya about already knowing how mp3 sounds. Nothing you can do about that. I understand because I also look for songs that are unavailable anywhere else. BUT, if you think you're going to find a cure-all, quick-fix, one setting-fits all cure, you're wrong. You ARE going to have to sit in front of the computer to get things right. I suggest you get a good soundcard and hook it up to the stereo or get better PC speakers and a good soundcard so you can better hear what you are doing. I have a life too, but I open every single mp3 and inspect it and make adjustments to it if needed so I can produce the bast CD I can. |