keeping actual 720 × 576 size on a BD

john_dennis wrote on 4/13/2016, 4:22 PM

This might be the one case in history where using Pan/Crop to create a 1920x1080 area around your standard definition video may make sense. Render to 1920x1080 and watch for field order issues. At least, it will give you more control over how the video is sized on all the TVs out there.

Former user wrote on 4/13/2016, 4:37 PM

As John said, you need to create an HD project and size the video to the correct size within that project. You will have a border around the video, which seems to be what you want.

Mindmatter wrote on 4/13/2016, 4:39 PM

will give that a try, many thanks!

musicvid10 wrote on 4/13/2016, 4:57 PM

That way will work, but your files will be quite a bit larger.

I'm sure your TV has a source aspect option somewhere; on the analog inputs if nowhere else.

Former user wrote on 4/13/2016, 5:22 PM

But it is still going to resize the picture to full screen, which seems to be what he doesn't want. (full screen top and bottom)

Chienworks wrote on 4/13/2016, 5:32 PM

Don, if you use Pan/Crop to set the image height & width to 720x576 then Vegas will render it that small size within a black 1920x1080 frame.

The file size won't be that much larger than using a 720x576 project. Actually the file size will be determined by the bitrate used, regardless of the frame size, so it could be exactly the same size file if you want. The thing is though that you may need a few extra bits to render the black while maintaining the quality of the inset image, but you don't need much more. Solid black compresses very well and takes up almost no space.

PeterDuke wrote on 4/13/2016, 7:38 PM

A large black frame should compress very well, so you may not need as high a bit rate as you may think.

musicvid10 wrote on 4/13/2016, 8:35 PM

Kelly, I'd like to see your test results in Vegas.
I've run the tests in Handbrake and encoding at the same quality, came to a different conclusion.
It will be better bpp than a full image comparison, but not as much as I wanted to think.

john_dennis wrote on 4/13/2016, 10:11 PM

I ran the tests with NTSC media in Handbrake with all parameters the same except for the pixel dimensions. I used Constant Quality, 20 RF. The larger black area doesn't seem to raise the required bit rate enough to write home to Mama about. The 480-30 file was 126.386MB, while the 1080-30 file was 130.922MB, about 3.6% more for the 1080 file. However, the renders should take place in Vegas using the Mainconcept or Sony Blu-ray templates. Mediainfo follows:

General
Complete name : C:\Users\John\Desktop\Render Test\Rendered Output\480-30p.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42 (mp42/isom/avc1)
File size : 123 MiB
Duration : 9mn 55s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 1 738 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:55:48
Tagged date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:58:46
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.9 2013052900

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 9mn 55s
Bit rate : 1 449 Kbps
Display aspect ratio : 3:2
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.140
Stream size : 103 MiB (83%)
Writing library : x264 core 130 r2273 b3065e6
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=2 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=300 / keyint_min=30 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=62500 / vbv_bufsize=78125 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=none / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:55:48
Tagged date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:58:46
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.601 NTSC
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.601

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 9mn 55s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 288 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 315 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Frame rate : 43.066 fps (1024 spf)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 20.2 MiB (16%)
Title : Stereo
Encoded date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:55:48
Tagged date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:58:45

General
Complete name : C:\Users\John\Desktop\Render Test\Rendered Output\1080-30p.mp4
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42 (mp42/isom/avc1)
File size : 128 MiB
Duration : 9mn 55s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 1 801 Kbps
Encoded date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:34:32
Tagged date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:52:56
Writing application : HandBrake 0.9.9 2013052900

Video
ID : 1
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High@L4.1
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, ReFrames : 4 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 9mn 55s
Bit rate : 1 511 Kbps
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.024
Stream size : 107 MiB (84%)
Writing library : x264 core 130 r2273 b3065e6
Encoding settings : cabac=1 / ref=3 / deblock=1:0:0 / analyse=0x3:0x113 / me=hex / subme=7 / psy=1 / psy_rd=1.00:0.00 / mixed_ref=1 / me_range=16 / chroma_me=1 / trellis=1 / 8x8dct=1 / cqm=0 / deadzone=21,11 / fast_pskip=1 / chroma_qp_offset=-2 / threads=12 / lookahead_threads=2 / sliced_threads=0 / nr=0 / decimate=1 / interlaced=0 / bluray_compat=0 / constrained_intra=0 / bframes=3 / b_pyramid=2 / b_adapt=1 / b_bias=0 / direct=1 / weightb=1 / open_gop=0 / weightp=2 / keyint=300 / keyint_min=30 / scenecut=40 / intra_refresh=0 / rc_lookahead=40 / rc=crf / mbtree=1 / crf=20.0 / qcomp=0.60 / qpmin=0 / qpmax=69 / qpstep=4 / vbv_maxrate=62500 / vbv_bufsize=78125 / crf_max=0.0 / nal_hrd=none / ip_ratio=1.40 / aq=1:1.00
Encoded date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:34:32
Tagged date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:52:55
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709

Audio
ID : 2
Format : AAC
Format/Info : Advanced Audio Codec
Format profile : LC
Codec ID : 40
Duration : 9mn 55s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 288 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 315 Kbps
Channel(s) : 2 channels
Channel positions : Front: L R
Sampling rate : 44.1 KHz
Frame rate : 43.066 fps (1024 spf)
Compression mode : Lossy
Stream size : 20.2 MiB (16%)
Title : Stereo
Encoded date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:34:32
Tagged date : UTC 2016-04-14 02:52:55

john_dennis wrote on 4/13/2016, 11:21 PM

More to the point, Mainconcept has templates for both DVD and Blu-ray. I ran the same tests with customized versions of the Mainconcept MPEG-2 templates. I configured DVD and Blu-ray templates to produce bit rates in the range 9,500,000, 6,000,000, 2,192,000 and Video Quality = 31. The Mediainfo for each output follows:

General
Complete name : C:\Users\John\Desktop\Render Test\Rendered Output\DVD Render Test.mpg
Format : MPEG-PS
File size : 435 MiB
Duration : 9mn 56s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 6 113 Kbps

Video
ID : 224 (0xE0)
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Format settings, picture structure : Frame
Duration : 9mn 56s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 5 991 Kbps
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.578
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
GOP, Open/Closed : Open
GOP, Open/Closed of first frame : Closed
Stream size : 426 MiB (98%)

General
Complete name : C:\Users\John\Desktop\Render Test\Rendered Output\1080 Render Test.m2v
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
File size : 407 MiB
Duration : 9mn 56s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 5 721 Kbps

Video
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : Variable
Format settings, picture structure : Frame
Duration : 9mn 56s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 5 721 Kbps
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.092
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
GOP, Open/Closed : Open
GOP, Open/Closed of first frame : Closed
Stream size : 407 MiB (100%)

I was surprised that the Full HD render is smaller than the DVD render. This is a small sample and the files sizes could vary some.

Because I'm so easily entertained, here is the Mediainfo for a Studio RGB black of the same length and 1920x1080 pixel dimensions rendered to the Mainconcept MPEG-2 Blu-ray template with a 2,192,000 minimum.

General
Complete name : C:\Users\John\Desktop\Render Test\Rendered Output\Black Render Test.m2v
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
File size : 64.5 MiB
Duration : 9mn 56s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 907 Kbps

Video
Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@High
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=15
Format settings, picture structure : Frame
Duration : 9mn 56s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 907 Kbps
Frame rate : 29.970 (30000/1001) fps
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Top Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.015
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
GOP, Open/Closed : Open
GOP, Open/Closed of first frame : Closed
Stream size : 64.5 MiB (100%)

Rich Parry wrote on 4/14/2016, 1:23 AM

This is what I did for my 8mm and 16mm film my parents shot back in 1941. Thought it might give you some ideas. If not, best of luck to you.

https://vimeo.com/album/3791663/video/158350490

Mindmatter wrote on 4/14/2016, 4:15 AM

Looks good Rich. Did you remaster the color films in any way? They look clean and nicely contrasted with nice colors.

musicvid10 wrote on 4/14/2016, 8:28 AM

I just ran the Handbrake tests using John Dennis' setup and got about the same results.
It's not as big an issue as I recalled.

Rich Parry wrote on 4/15/2016, 12:32 AM

Mindmatter,

All the original 8mm and 16mm film was shot by my in the 40s and 50s. I sent it all to SCANCAFE.COM for scanning. They did nothing special. Most of the video is 15fps.

The Vimeo link I sent points to just 1 of 9 videos I have been working on these for close to a year. Here is the entire album.
https://vimeo.com/album/3791663

I have spent hundreds of hours going through 35 hours of video to capture about 1 hour of usable video. The video quality is poor (low frame rate and noisy), but priceless to me. The video represents the lives of my parents, children, and me.

The final 9 videos consist of about 500 individual clips, each about 5-20 seconds. I CC each as best as I could. I used essentially one plug-in for CC, Color Curves. Some also have the WB plug-in, but most don't. Lastly, they ALL have the BORDER plug-in to cleanup the edges.

The particles and lens flare you see flying in the background is from a Vegasuar template.

Without a doubt, these 9 video represent the biggest project I have undertaken. Thank God I am retired. Hopefully the children will think of me and smile someday.

BTW, I could not have gotten through this project without a box of Kleenex next to the keyboard. :)

Rich

Mindmatter wrote on 4/15/2016, 3:14 AM

I hear ya Rich... seeing the life of my parents in times so incredibly diferent from ours, in their youth, as "real persons" - not parent figures, sends me through all kinds of emotional rollercoasters, my birth, childhood...all of that.
The past becoming or remaining a sort of reality in moving pictures is something that I think our brain is not really equipped to fathom yet.
Makes me think and rethink and while watching those films, I'm being pulled back to very fundamental existential questions and mysteries. Who were they? Who were all those before them? who are we? Where have they all gone, where do we go?
The "dust in the wind" metaphor comes to mind...

Rich Parry wrote on 4/15/2016, 3:13 PM

Mindmatter,

Ditto

Rich