DVD Architect Pro V6.0 - BD Properties..Frame Rate

3dbproductions wrote on 4/20/2015, 5:27 PM
Hello,

I recently captured an event at 1920x1080 30fps (29.97fps) progressive. I rendered the video stream using the MainConcept (.m2v) template at 29.970 fps progressive at 24 Mbps CBR.

When I open DVDA 6.0 and went to set the Properties:

Disc Format: Blu-ray Disc
Target media size (GB): 25.00
Video format: MPEG-2
Bit rate (Mbps): 24.000
Aspect ratio: 16:9
Resolution: 1920x1080

It is the Frame Rate that I have a question. There is NO pull-down selection for 29.970 progressive. Only 29.970 interlaced.

What should I use for the Frame Rate in my particular instance?

Thanks in advance.
Dave

Comments

PeterDuke wrote on 4/20/2015, 6:53 PM
Your source is not covered by the BD spec so you will have to convert it. Select "interlaced" render in Vegas and with "no resample" event properties. You will end up with 30p flagged as 60i. In other words, the second field in a frame will have the same time instant as the first, and not 1/60 sec later as in true 60i. When you play it, it will look like 30p.
3dbproductions wrote on 4/20/2015, 8:17 PM
Thanks PeterDuke for responding.

I think I understand the concept, but I wonder if you can help me a little further by being more specific as it relates to render templates in Vegas 13. Should I select the MainConcept *.m2v for 1920x1080-60i template? If so, then how do I set the "no resample" event properties as you suggest? Then after the render, should I use the DVDA Properties Frame rate as 29.970 interlaced?

I didn't realize that the BD spec didn't include a 1920x1080 30p spec.

I appreciate your help here...
Dave
PeterDuke wrote on 4/21/2015, 4:20 AM
Should I select the MainConcept *.m2v for 1920x1080-60i template?

Since you wish to make a BD, I suggest that you select a Sony AVCHD or Blu-ray template. Render the video and audio separately. The audio should be AC3 Pro.

Then after the render, should I use the DVDA Properties Frame rate as 29.970 interlaced?

Yes, only DVDA calls it 60i. Sony is not consistent how to describe interlaced video, i.e. the fields per second or the frames per second.

By the way, I just checked (with Vegas Pro 13), and you do not need to worry about the resample settting for this task.



3dbproductions wrote on 4/22/2015, 11:57 PM
Thanks PeterDuke for the comments. To just close the loop on this topic. I started a render on my large project before you posted the last time. I used:

MainConcept MPEG-2 (generates *.m2v)
1920x1080 29.970 Interlaced (okay 60 fields interlaced)
24Mbps CBR

I rendered the ac3 separately

I pulled this project into DVDA and set the properties to match the render. In fact, the Frame Rate option in DVDA 6.0 does correctly say: 29.970 interlaced. Then created the *.iso file. Finally, I burned it onto a BD-R media.

The resulting image as played on my Sony BDP-S3500 Blu-Ray player was very good and bottom line is that I am happy.

That said, there is still one thing that I don't quite understand. I found an earlier post by you that made reference to the Wikipedia BD spec. There it spells out the various formats supported by BD. In particular there is a 1920x1080 29.970i (okay, most people call that 60i). There is no 30p, but there is a 24p. I believe that most modern BD players all claim 60p frame rates. I set my BluRay player to output the original format of the disc and it correctly reported 1920x1080/60i for my project. It still looked very smooth and I really didn't see an interlacing at all.

But, here is the kicker, I put in a commercial BD (Avatar I think) and it played at 1920x1080/60p. I realize that my BD player will "upscale" to 60p, but I have the player set to play the original disc format (the Sony BD players have this option). So, is there an update to the BD spec that actually includes progressive formats other than the 24p the spec currently shows? If so, do you think that DVDA will someday support those formats (okay, that is asking for speculation)? Am I completely confused?

Thanks again!
PeterDuke wrote on 4/23/2015, 2:41 AM
"I believe that most modern BD players all claim 60p frame rates."

That probably refers to the HDMI link between player and TV. Lesser formats will be upscaled if necessary. You have the option of upscaling in the player or the TV.

My guess is that Avatar, having started out life as a movie for cinema release, would have been shot in 24p and the BD will be 24p as well.

I have heard talk of BD players playing other formats, but I don't know how you would check it or create such a BD. I wouldn't wait for DVDA to support it if I were you.

The closest I have been able to get is to create a progressive AVCHD folder, complete with menu, using TMPGEnc Authoring Works and play it on my PC using CyberLink PowerDVD or Nero BD player, but I don't know how to play it on my TV. I can however play a straight 1920x1080x50p file without menu on my TV using my hardware network media player.

Post Script

I have a BD/DVD set of Oklahoma that includes a BD derived from the Todd-AO version, which was shot in 30p. The BD is 30p! So there you go.

It plays on my old region free BD player, but is sluggish to navigate. (It won't play on my newer player because it is the wrong region.)
musicvid10 wrote on 4/27/2015, 3:04 PM
A BluRay or DVD movie will almost always have a native frame rate of 24p,
yet it can be FLAGGED as 29.97/60i (analog) or 60p (hdmi) for home playback. This is called "Soft Telecine." There is no actual pulldown in the footage, which is a good thing.
Your BluRay is probably native 24p, as is my Avatar DVD.

It's easy enough to encode at the native (smooth) playback rate using Handbrake, and it's wonderful to watch at the same frame rate at which it was shot.

Look at the opening flyover scene in Avatar. If that motion isn't perfectly smooth, you are getting soft telecine on playback.

Chienworks wrote on 4/27/2015, 4:36 PM
"There is NO pull-down selection for 29.970 progressive. Only 29.970 interlaced."

This is because the pull-down process makes use of interlaced containing twice as many fields as frames. It's then taking 60 images and 'weaving them' into 24 frames, maintaining smoother motion. Without the interlaced fields then there isn't any advantage in attempting this process.
PeterDuke wrote on 4/27/2015, 7:01 PM
"A BluRay or DVD movie will almost always have a native frame rate of 24p, yet it can be FLAGGED as 29.97/60i (analog) or 60p (hdmi) for home playback."

This would be true for DVDs but unlikely to be true for BDs because 24p is a supported format.
musicvid10 wrote on 4/27/2015, 8:13 PM
Yes it is but there is HW up sampling to 60p over HDMI as well, not 100% sure if it has a flag.
I'll ask the Handbrake gurus what really happens.