Something to think about, if your camera records to a compressed format, you will not get uncompressed out of the HDMI unless you are recording it live. Once it is recorded, the compression damage is done.

That is true. But it looks like the Black Magic HyperDeck Shutle 2 solution will cover us in the field.

But most of our work is to be Chroma Key Studio Work.

Several issues are rearing up here in this thread. Yes, the HDMI connector can be connected to an intensity shuttle - and potentially live-streamed. But the camera head is designed as 8bit out - so whether live, or off the card will not make any difference in what the HDMI connector transports.

In the BM Intensity shuttle, you have options to record at potentially a higher bit-rate than what the transported signal requires. BUT this adds or contributes nothing to the signal quality and IT does contribute heavily to wasted bits and storage space on the acquisition drive. At a terribly fast pace.

BM allows you to download a test drive utility that will tell you your system is totally inadequate for doing this. Be FOREwarned as they say!

Will

Check the manual, I believe only the HD-SDI connector will get you 10bit, not sure about the HDMI; it's been a while I worked with it. I would rather look into the ATOMOS recorders, the BM Hyperdeck is a pain in the field as it cant be mounted anywhere on the camera, not even with the adapter. The battery live is another issue. I am also not sure if the camera can trigger the recording on the BM or the Atomos.
Also, don't expect too much from it, the HXR-NX5U sensors are not a Full 1920x1080 sensors and the picture is a bit soft even with the external recorder.

[I]"But the camera head is designed as 8bit out - so whether live, or off the card will not make any difference in what the HDMI connector transports."[/I]

That's just plain wrong.
The live feed from the HDMI or HD-SDI connector is from before the encoder. So whilst yes, it's probably only 8 bit it avoids the chroma subsampling and the losses attributable to the encoder. The encoder part of the camera might not only be throwing away chroma data it can also be doing dynamic noise reduction to make the encoder's task easier.

For anyone doing chroma keying the potential for getting more usable data from the camera by recording the output of the HDMI or HD-SDI connector is definitely there but some caution is needed. As was found using the Nanoflash from Convergent Design with the XDCAM EX1/3 simply recording @ 50Mbps compared to the camera's native 35Mbps caused the encoder grief, the bitrate needed to be increased to 100Mbps. That's probably because the HD SDI output was before the DNR circuit. Sony went on to release the PMW-200 which does record 4:2:2 @ 50Mbps, the front end of the camera is pretty much the same as the EX1/3.

That all makes sense though because those cameras do use three full HD chips. Cheaper single chip cameras introduce the issue them using Bayer pattern sensors, so just how much chroma data is to be had from the sensor in the first place is an issue that needs to be factored in.

Certainly just how much data you'll need to wrangle is a valid concern. Cheap units such as the Shuttle record at a very high data rate so it needs fast media and lots of it. That gets expensive very quickly and your money might indeed be better spent on a better camera to start with.

The other consideration and to my mind the most important is the gross physical unreliability of the HDMI interconnection system. On top of that is the reliability and functionality of the external recorder. If you're using HDMI then generally you're forced to have to remember to hit the Record button on the recorder. With HD SDI you can trigger the recorder from the TC data.

Bob.

Bob, perhaps you have been more succinct in your explanation and reasoning than I really cared to get into. And I note your reasoning goes into a higher-level of understanding and complexity than most would follow. But in addition I would like to point out that we are in agreement that the lower-end camera tech is not somehow going to be appearing magical in value at the HDMI end live or encoded.

[I]"I would like to point out that we are in agreement that the lower-end camera tech is not somehow going to be appearing magical in value at the HDMI end live or encoded. "[/I]

As was discovered with the Nanoflash it can even be a worse outcome if one isn't aware of what you're doing!
For sure an external recorder is not going to produce any magic but in a studio environment it might make sense especially if trying to do chroma keying. Beyond that the cost and the grief is very difficult to justify. It's worth doing some tests, beg, borrow or rent a unit is always my advice.

Bob.

OK, I'm learning here guys. Thanks for hanging in with me...

Let me restate our goals...

We will be shooting a lot of chroma-key with the Sony NX5U in our small studio.

Having worked with chroma keying DV video from our old Sony PD-150 years ago we are looking for a better way and hopefully we can get it with our Sony HXR NX5U.

We are about to experiment Chroma-keying the native AVCHD video as captured by the camera...

But wanted to investigate an alternate (and not to expensive) way to take the uncompressed video from the hdmi port or the Serial Digital Interface (SDI) port and capture that in a better intermidate format.. 4:2:2 right?

1 - So, the questions now are... how to do this.

2 - It looks like there at least a couple of options to capture the uncompressed video on an external storage device be it BlackMagic Design's device or an ATOMOS device or some other device...

But then I guess we would have to later encode that uncompressed video to some intermidate 4:2:2 format for post work... right

3 - Or is there a way to go directly to the PC through an HDMI Capture Card or an SDI capture card and encode in real time to 4:2:2 so we don't eat up all the computers hard drive space during a long session? And what hardware and software would we need to do this solution?


4 - Regarding ATOMOS recorders... I went to their website and saw $2,000 devices that served as a recorder and as a on-camera monitor... we don't need the on-camera monitor... did I look in the wrong place? Which ATOMOS device should we consider?

Thanks again for the help guys. Really appriceate it.

1) Your camera will probably not be the best source for creating files for encoding into a chroma-key setup. - Certainly never ever AVCHD or any other compressed type of video. YOU do need to be working with uncompressed video and then all that entails - RAID hardware for capture, gigantic drive storage for time volume of recording.

2) In order of priority in getting keying to work and be most successful - A) Scene lighting - B) Video capture original in 4:2:2, C) Keying software for example the Boris Continuum series

3) You are better off to rent a good camera for the capture sequence in a studio - this will pay back huge in savings when the environment is confined and managed.

4) You are better off with direct capture as for example: a studio based Raid drive array - than any other mobile solution for example ATOMOS.


Read and study some more:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=906328


http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=898892

The BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle 2 is the cheapest and it'll record to DNxHD so no need to transcode. It does lack a confidence monitor so you are flying blind.

If you want that then it's the ATAMOS Ninja 2 or the Convergent Design Odyssey7 which does have a very nice OLED screen. Only the Ninja 2 will record DNxHD though. You could also look around for a NanoFlash.


Bob.

Well there is one thing I've learned about video production and that is the equipment you have is never good enough for what you want to do :-)

We will, however, for now, try to optimize the results on the equipment we have by investing a few additional dollars into a device or two and maybe some into a better keyer.

One possible bridge solution is the Atomos Ninja Star Pocket-Size ProRes Recorder & Deck for $295. That plus a 128GB C-Fast Card for $239 plus a C-Fast Card reader for $49.
This would give us ProRes 4:2:2 video.equals about $600

What are the issues editing ProRes on Vegas vs Avid DNxHD ?
If DNxHD is better we could go with the BMD Hyperdeck shuttle 2 for $327 plus a 250 GB SSD for $126 + some device for getting the DNxHD files from the SSD drive to our computer for $450 plus the device to get the file onto our PC.

What do you think?

Prores can be problematic with Vegas, I'm pretty sure Avid's DNxHD is fine.

The BMD Hyperdeck Shuttle has a USB port, you just connect that to the PC and copy the files. You could invest in any one of the cheap disk docks for under $50 if you wanted to keep the Hyperdeck free.

Bob.

Thanks Bob. We will order one later this week and give it a try.

And thanks again to everyone who pitched in here!!!