"Universal" DVD format?

WayneM wrote on 3/29/2015, 4:19 PM
I've searched all the forums but didn't come up with discussion that seemed to answer some of these questions.

I'm rendering a VP13 project to create a DVD and later will create an image file for CreateSpace, probably using Handbrake. I'd like the DVD to be playable as universally (in terms of countries) as possible. In the 'old' days that was a challenge and I wondered if things have gotten better in terms of NTSC vs PAL. When I started researching I was thinking that NTSC and PAL were probably terms long dead in a digital world. And for greatest compatibility I plan to enable it for All Regions.

The VP project source material is Canon XA20 footage shot at 1920x1080 60p

1. For DVDA will I need to render the project to BOTH NTSC and PAL video streams to create two different image files and two different DVDs that are Regionally compatible? Is there now a more universal standard in play that I can render to?

2. The DVDA NTSC 24p render looks attractive with the source video I have, but is that more likely to be incompatible with some NTSC equipment?

3. The project is widescreen formatted, but I want the full image to be seen on both modern and older 4:3 displays. On the 4:3 displays I want black bars above and below the image, not cut off sides. Am I better off to render to the Widescreen or to the non-Widescreen stream. (I don't want to offer both versions on the DVD since that would probably only confuse many.) I did a test some time ago and the results, as memory serves, seemed counter-intuitive. In the Preview my WS video was horizontally compressed to a 4:3 frame, like in playback the display system might stretch it!

4. From what I read in the manual, the AC3 audio will work for NTSC and PAL with no setting changes, right? (I DO use a modified AC3 Template to restore the audio levels.)

5. As I read the Render As options list, it looks like the NTSC vs. PAL thing has gone away with Blu-ray. Is that possible? Still, Blu-ray isn't an option for this project.

Thanks much.

Wayne

Comments

musicvid10 wrote on 3/29/2015, 4:47 PM
Plenty of recent discussion on down converting HD for DVD.
And you need only render and author one NTSC version. It will play anywhere.
PeterDuke wrote on 3/29/2015, 6:15 PM
"was thinking that NTSC and PAL were probably terms long dead in a digital world"

Part of the world uses 50 Hz electricity supply and TVs with 25 frames per second, while the rest of the world uses 60 Hz and 30 frames per second. That is firmly entrenched and is not likely to change in your lifetime (failing a world takeover by some super power!). However most PAL TVs and players made these days also support NTSC but not vice versa, so NTSC is virtually universally playable. Many video cameras are still either NTSC or PAL only, however.

24p has to be converted to 60i since 24p is not covered by the DVD spec.

I would query the wisdom of letterboxing widescreen footage to 4:3 format when many TVs are now widescreen. Those with 4:3 TVs will have come to terms by now with the trend to widescreen and will have their workarounds or be used to squished images.

AC3 works with both PAL and NTSC

NTSC and PAL labels are still used, perhaps inaccurately, with Blu-ray to denote the frame rate used. As I said before, that is not likely to change soon.
WayneM wrote on 3/29/2015, 8:24 PM
"And you need only render and author one NTSC version. It will play anywhere."

Thanks, cuts my challenge at least in half.

"Plenty of recent discussion on down converting HD for DVD."

Meaning during the Render process, right? I saw some discussions regarding getting the best output, settings like Upper Field first, etc.

Thanks.

Wayne
WayneM wrote on 3/29/2015, 8:28 PM
"However most PAL TVs and players made these days also support NTSC but not vice versa, so NTSC is virtually universally playable."

That's good to know, so I should be able to stick to NTSC and just provide a heads up that, "Make sure your system is compatible with NTSC DVDs." or some such thing.

Thanks!

Wayne
WayneM wrote on 3/30/2015, 9:30 PM
"I would query the wisdom of letterboxing widescreen footage to 4:3 format when many TVs are now widescreen. Those with 4:3 TVs will have come to terms by now with the trend to widescreen and will have their workarounds or be used to squished images."

Maybe my question wasn't clear.

I guess I'll have to experiment with this. I watch a lot of DVDs on a good sized modern flat panel. I see 4:3 content with bars on the side which my eye rapidly makes go away. My concern is going the other way. I want to make 16:9 content on the DVD is displayed correctly. Does the "Pixel Aspect Ratio" trigger behavior in the player or display that stretches the native 720x480 images?

I'm not going to worry about compatibility of this DVD with old 4:3 displays.

What I don't know, and am thinking I'll have to build a test DVD or two, is if a modern DVD or Blu-ray player can in some way can display 16:9 content on a DVD to fill the screen automatically, such as by triggering the displays system to either zoom in or even stretch a horizontally compressed image. I seem to remember playing a DVD (not a Blu-ray) once that had widescreen content and it seems it completely or mostly filled the widescreen display without and user interaction.

The content is such that I cannot crop off the sides. I also don't think I want to create a product, unless absolutely necessary, where the content would display as 'squished' until the mode of the display was changed. Or maybe I have to.

I was thinking I just need to render my 16:9 project with the "DVD Architect NTSC Widescreen video stream" and test it out.

Wayne
PeterDuke wrote on 3/31/2015, 12:21 AM
If your source is SD widescreen then render to SD widescreen. It will fully fill the screen of modern TVs.

TVs usually have a remote button that can select alternate display formats in case the default is wrong. I often find that when I play a 4:3 DVD, the TV stretches it to 16:9. A press or two of the format button soon puts that right, giving the black bars each side, which as you said, you soon get used to.

I suggest that you take the time to play with this button on your TV. That should relieve your anxiety. Different brands of TV behave somewhat differently, unfortunately.
WayneM wrote on 3/31/2015, 5:47 PM
My source for the Vegas project is HD Wide Screen, but if you mean the result of the render that goes into DVDA, I plan on that to be SD Wide Screen.

You're right, I'll just burn a DVD and play with it.

Thanks.

Wayne
Chienworks wrote on 4/4/2015, 8:44 AM
In DVDA, make sure you set the project properties to 16:9 instead of 4:3. This doesn't alter the video in any way, but it does set the flag for the player/TV to display it correctly. Note that this is independent of any source/project/render settings in Vegas. If you do a widescreen project and render, but leave the DVDA flag at 4:3 then it will be displayed squished into 4:3. If you do a 4:3 project & render in Vegas but set DVDA to 16:9 then it will be displayed stretched to 16:9.

Would be nice if DVDA read the video file given to it and set this flag automatically, but, alas.
PeterDuke wrote on 4/4/2015, 6:43 PM
I just recently made some DVDs from 4:3 DV AVI via Vegas.

I set everything to 4:3 SD in both Vegas and DVD Arch.

When I play the DVD, my TV (a "smart" Sony) initially stretches the video to 16:9, so I have to select 4:3 using the remote.

No flags being read there, apparently.
videoITguy wrote on 4/4/2015, 6:58 PM
Generally most modern hardware, ie., being optical disc players, do not interpret any 4:3 aspect - although they may contain firmware switches that may be customer enabled.

The thinking is that 16:9 is the modern common default. All distributions should be created in 16:9 screen even if that means pillared box 4:3 sources centered in the screen.
PeterDuke wrote on 4/4/2015, 11:41 PM
"All distributions should be created in 16:9 screen even if that means pillared box 4:3 sources centered in the screen."

Unless I misunderstand you, I don't agree.

SD for PAL DVD is 720x576 (max.) pixels, whether standard (4:3 = 12:9) or widescreen (16:9) . With your proposal you would lose horizontal resolution, with only 720x12/16 = 540 active pixels instead of 720. A similar argument holds for NTSC.
EricLNZ wrote on 4/5/2015, 4:34 AM
@PeterDuke

Does your Sony play other 4:3 DVDs okay? I ask because my 7 yr old Sony Bravio TV automatically adjusted to the aspect ratio but then I got a newer bigger Panasonic and with the same DVDs it doesn't which had me puzzled initially as I assumed all TVs behaved like my Sony! With the Panasonic I have to manually alter the aspect ratio. And yes I have searched the extensive menu for any way of getting it to automatically adjust but with no success.

EricLNZ wrote on 4/5/2015, 4:43 AM
@Chienworks

It is my experience with DVDA that the project properties aspect ratio (16:9 or 4:3) only applies to the menus and video files that are recompressed. Files that are compliant and don't need recompressing go onto the DVD retaining their original aspect flags. I have produced several DVDs containing a mixture of 16:9 and 4:3 and the videos play correctly.

However none of the source files to my knowledge were produced by Vegas as they have come from several video makers using a variety of software.
PeterDuke wrote on 4/5/2015, 6:54 AM
"Does your Sony play other 4:3 DVDs okay?"

I haven't made serious study of it because pushing a remote button is no big deal. But in the cause of science and to satisfy my own curiosity I will look into it.
videoITguy wrote on 4/5/2015, 8:25 AM
PeterDuke, your comment about modifying aspect ratio (PAL) may not apply to what I was thinking about in my previous comment. But I have not experimented with the concept.
What I suggested has to do with creating production in VegasPro that pads or pillars an external overall frame of 16:9 aspect - which means that lesser formats have to be appropriately contained within the frame - possibly by reducing their overall size.
This is the same concept that was used when the first 4:3 DVDs came out that actually contained a widescreen cinemascope sourced movie.
You would not lose resolution of the original source, but rather the consumer loses some appreciation of the aesthetic of the overall frame as it may become a postage stamp in a black space of the overall screen.

The comment by EricLNZ is also quite interesting - if it is indeed true that common workflows inside of VegasPro to DVDArchitect do lose aspect flags. I know that other authoring systems do allow manual control of the flag which DVDAPro does not.
WayneM wrote on 4/5/2015, 12:41 PM
FWIW, as suggested by JohnMeyer and others I rendered my 1920x1080x60p original video to the "DVD Architect NTSC Widescreen video stream" using the Default 29.97 fps" for creating the DVD. I did a test burn and previewed it on a Sony Blu-ray player to a 2 year old VIZIO 37". Results are fine. The video does automatically appear widescreen with image all the way to the edges. I'm sure there is a small bit of cropping.

From earlier tests I measured cutoff and set my safe area to 7% which provides plenty of clearance for the lower titles and text. Until I saw another message here I wasn't aware that there are slight variations between various 16:9 identified ratios. I love standards. . .isn't it nice that there are so many! Especially when they are supposed to be mathematically based.

So I have all my notes for future reference and may actually be able to answer a question for someone else next time. . .

Happy Easter!

Wayne
PeterDuke wrote on 4/5/2015, 8:04 PM
"Does your Sony play other 4:3 DVDs okay?"

I have looked into it and it depends on the DVD player. One seems to reliably switch format while another always defaults to widescreen.