Subject:How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Posted by: johnsawan79

Date:11/10/2014 8:42:21 AM

Hi!, I'm new to recording & I would like have an expert advice how to properly connect the musical instruments to the recording mixing board. I have the following instruments in my home studio:

Yamaha GM16XU USB recording mixer
ROLAND TD-11KV V-Drums
ROLAND CUBE 30 Bass Amp with Rec/Phone out
ROLAND XL40 Guitar Amp with Rec/Phone out
BOSS ME-80 Guitar Effects
SHURE PG42 XLR Condenser Microphone

Questions:

1. What's the recommended method of connecting the guitar & bass amps into the mixer? Which is better; recording from the amp rec/headphone output to the mixer or record using condenser microphone?

2. My V-drums has two output type, a headphone & a separate Left & Right outputs, which is better between the two types to hook in the mixer board?

3. When recording in ACID pro 7.0, I get really thin audio waves, should I keep it as is or should I normalize it?

I have been recording for more than a month now, but my mix seems really muddy, also the guitar sounds really thin.

Hope to get some advice thanks!

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: ClipMan

Date:11/10/2014 10:15:00 AM

I see you have an external mixing board. We don't use one in our studio but the following advice may help solve your problem. The goal we have is to record a clean signal from the source instrument. No effects, no nothing. Clean. The shorter the route, the better. We used to record off an amp for the guitars/bass but decided to plug them directly into the audio interface. Any "atmosphere" we lost doing it is easily recovered through quality plugins in post. Guitars and basses are high impedance devices. Plugging them directly into a board requires a hi- "Z" input channel. We just switch it on. Maybe you can use a pad for a boost.

If you're not recording in 24 bit space, you should be. We record between -18 db and -12 db. At 24 bits and with the right impedance you should be able to boost the playback easily without raising the noise floor. There's no need to normalize the signal. You'll want all the headroom for the mixing stage. You'll need it. We record guitars and basses in mono. Frankly, to me, all raw guitar input sounds like crap even when recorded optimally. That's why god invented plugins. Keyboards, sax and other instruments are always in stereo. Acid can easily mono a stereo track if you want to pan the instrument in the final mix.

I realize your board is set up to "color" the signal coming in (EQ, Compression etc.) We don't use a board like this because we may want to use a guitarist's performance in another style of music with a different sound. If you "color" the performance coming in, you bake it into the recording and it's too much trouble to use it anywhere else. Anyway, hope this helps.

Brian
www.JazzHouseBlues.com

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/10/2014 8:04:38 PM

no, no, no, no..........

Clean guitar sounds may sound OK going direct, but distortion will never sound even close to what it's supposed to sound. Speaker itself and the air being moved are part of the sound. Direct recording eliminates them and you can never get that back no matter how much you spend on plugins.

Shure SM57 right in front of the speaker and you plug the mic into a pre-amp if possible then your board, or mic.goes directly into the board. That has been the basic setup since about forever and it's still the only way to go. You can use a different mic ( I sometimes use Sennheiser 421, sounds clearer and more open )

There are no high quality plugins when it comes to guitar, it's all garbage.
I wish I could record direct, but it's just not possible if you want the real sound.
Obviously this will depend on the sound you consider to be "real" and the restrictions imposed upon you by your hardware, but unless that direct recording sound is what you need a miked amp always beats direct recording, it's not even close.

I have software guitar simulator plugins, sans amp direct boxes, amps, nice RME preamps and none of it works unless I'm just laying down ideas not wanting to disturb the neighbors or really want that direct sound ( rarely ).

Guitar ------- Mesa Boogie Amp ----- Mic. ------------- pre-amps/mixer ( either hardware or software through your sound interface ).

And earplugs for the neighbors.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: ClipMan

Date:11/10/2014 9:27:39 PM

@ There are no high quality plugins when it comes to guitar, it's all garbage

LOL! Go to the Camel Audio site. Download their free plugin called Camel Crusher. Use it. It's totally awesome, dude. We used it for the guitar solo on our latest 60 second track called "Get off the Lawn". You can hear it at www.JazzHouseBlues.com. It's the first track on the page. It's pure glory.

@ Shure SM57 right in front of the speaker

That's a cheap stage mic. You don't record with it. The Sennheiser 421 is better but you'll spend more time screwing around with placement than you will with a large diaphragm condenser like the AT2020.

@ I wish I could record direct, but it's just not possible if you want the real sound.

LOL! Good one! .... you're kidding, right? But like I said before, to each his own. Best to you.

Brian

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: johnsawan79

Date:11/10/2014 11:48:10 PM

Thanks guys, your inputs are being considered despite having differences is our mic preferences. But for me, I'm currently here in K.S.A. & most musical shops has SHURE microphones only so I guess will try getting one of the SM57 this is due to my tight budget these days. I guess I'll try to mic the amps when recording & will see how's the results because I have been recording directly from the rec/headphone out since I started recording thinking its ok before. Will also check out the "Camel Crusher".

Just a question again, I have SHURE PG42, it's intended for vocals, is ok to use it for recording bass & guitars?

Thanks again guys
John

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/11/2014 10:21:40 AM

Sure SM57 is a cheap mic, but it has a sound people like. It's been a standard for ages, just like Marshall amps and cabinets. I'm not saying that's the only way to go, but that is what many people use, people who can afford any mic.

Note: Make sure you get a real SM57 ( if you are getting one ), apparently there are a lot of fake ones being sold since it's one of the most popular mics. Do some research on how to spot a fake.

I've tried many amp simulators, they are all garbage. Maybe you jazz musicians don't care about sound as much and don't use distortion as much, but it's impossible to duplicate an overdriven tube amp, something like a good Mesa Boogie. If these plugins were any good, Marshall and Mesa Boogie would be out of business, don't you think?

In the end the original poster should try both and pick whichever he likes better, but like I said people in big studios can use anything and they will almost always use a miked amp.. Direct recording is for practice, when you don't want to disturb the neighbors. I have never heard good sounding digital distortion of any kind, whether software plugins, expensive digital rack effects, even analog stomp boxes. It just doesn't even come close to something like Mesa's dual rectifier. I feel terrible even mentioning those in the same paragraph as the rectifier.

I just finished playing through SansAmp Leeds pedal, it's OK for practicing, but it's a joke compared to the real thing. And that pedal is still better than any plugin.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: ClipMan

Date:11/11/2014 10:49:15 AM

Muddy mixes are the direct result of too many instruments sharing the same frequency bands. You can spend days carving out frequency notches through compression and EQ to separate the individual instruments. Muddy mixes are also a result of cheap mics. Although micing an amp may sound pleasant on its own, the track still has to sit nicely in the mix. All those nice harmonics you get through an amp get crushed and dithered to smithereens. If you're just goofing around none of this really matters. Best to you.

Brian

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/11/2014 4:06:18 PM

Rock on Brian. I personally use amplitube. I have a mesa rig. If I could I'd give it all up for an Axe FX. The pros use it (Vai, Govan, etc...and that's a big etc) and know what's up. It's software driving hardware. Dig.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: mike_in_ky

Date:11/11/2014 4:53:14 PM

I downloaded Camel Crusher and installed it. Sounds pretty good to me...and free!

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: ClipMan

Date:11/11/2014 5:25:36 PM

@ I personally use amplitube.

We liked it too. It's still sitting on the computer unused. Can't figure out how to use it properly. Blew a speaker. Me and the studio musicians are basically geezers. No sense whatsoever about what to do with all those knobs. That's why we ended up with Camel Crusher. The interface was easy to understand and we knew what the knobs did right away. We don't normally distort our guitars and basses with our style of music but once in a while you just gotta put out something dirty, grungy and mean. Good for the soul. Something else you may want to check out. SimulAnalog Guitar Suite. Freebie. Really cool. And yes, it's all about software driving hardware. Best to you.

Brian

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: ClipMan

Date:11/11/2014 5:44:51 PM

@ Sounds pretty good to me...and free!

Yes, the presets cover the bases for us nicely when we want to grunge a guitar or bass. Very little tweaking needed. Just add some reverb on the chain and you're good to go. Mostly we use Alloy 2 on most of the instruments. The presets from iZotope are first class. Don't listen to any of the crap about a preset being only the starting point. If they sound good in the mix out of the box, then use them. Geezer advice. Best to you.

Brian

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/11/2014 5:54:07 PM

Thanks for the reply. I'm a big IK fan, have many of their products. All my presets are custom. But, again, AxeFX is the deal everyone wants but seldom acquires..it seems.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: ClipMan

Date:11/11/2014 7:18:27 PM

@ All my presets are custom.

I hear you but if I'm looking for a bright and clean sound for the guitar and there's a preset called 'bright and clean' and it sounds bright and clean in the mix then I don't mess with it. BUT, the sax is a whole different ballgame. We'll use a sax 95% of the time on our tracks. Love the instrument. It took me months before I could duplicate the reference sax track I had. Spent a lot of time, sweat and a fortune in mics before I could come close. I built an FX chain with 4 band custom compression, custom EQ, custom reverb, custom harmonic exciters with custom transients. If my hard drive ever crashed and wiped out the chain, I'd suck on a gas pipe. The AxeFX is overkill for what we do but I'm keeping a link just in case.

Brian

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/11/2014 7:25:55 PM

I'm so in tune with amplitube I know what I need pretty much always.
I recorded sax once. A 57 on a soprano. Passable. Barely.
AxeFX is about processing stringed instruments. Amazing surely applies to its capabilities. But why shouldn't technology be amazing at this time?

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: ClipMan

Date:11/11/2014 8:04:30 PM

@ A 57 on a soprano. Passable. Barely.

That's how I started too. The 57 had such a short, narrow focus, every time the guy breathed and moved the bell an inch, I'd lose signal. I spent more time futzing with audio envelopes on the track than I did on the whole mix. Never again. I use it for a talk back mic. Like I told the OP, it's not for recording. And it's got a lousy frequency response. Sounded like the guy was playing in a casket. No plugin created by any living human being on Earth could help this sucker out. Ended up using a pair of Rodes and the custom chain.

Brian

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/11/2014 8:45:02 PM

Yeah, the GIGO was in effect...

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/11/2014 10:16:03 PM

>>>>>Although micing an amp may sound pleasant on its own, the track still has to sit nicely in the mix. All those nice harmonics you get through an amp get crushed and dithered to smithereens. If you're just goofing around none of this really matters. Best to you.<<<<

That's what separates good sound engineers from bad ones. As they say, if it were easy everybody would be doing it and coming up with great results.

I haven't heard Axe FX, but other modelers did not impress me. I still have the original Dual rectifier from 1990 or so. It would be easier to just use some rack unit, but so far they have all sounded fake.

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-Zdq9FM_HA

I found this example. Axe doesn't sound bad, but it's far from nailing the simulation, at least in this example. I am listening through really good headphones and I know it's youtube, but the difference is obvious.


>>>>Like I told the OP, it's not for recording. And it's got a lousy frequency response. <<<

Yet it's been the most recorded mic. in the last 50 years. I'm talking about big studios too, not home studios.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/11/2014 10:32:45 PM

It seems you didn't know about it before today. Pros rave over it and they can use whatever they want. Technology advances. Real amps are great. But it's amazing what's being done. E.g. Andy Wood simply travels with one in a rack with a single space 1000 watt power amp and uses local venue cabs. When you fly portability is king. But they're (pros) recording with them too.it's almost a paradigm shift.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/11/2014 10:54:06 PM

No I didn't know about axe because I already have the sound I want and haven't been looking for anything new since 1990 ( to me dual recto through a 4x12 recto cabinet is perfect ). I have tried a bunch of modelers, hardware and software, because I have been hearing this "technology has come a long way" thing since late last century. But it has all been nonsense as far as guitar simulators go, so I don't bother actively looking for something like that.

Even if Axe could deliver what it says it can I wouldn't need to buy it. Sure portability is great, but just a few samples and I can tell it does not sound as good as the real thing. Some people may prefer axe's sound, I don't from what I've heard so far. Still sounds fake.

Anybody buying a 150 pound monstrosity for $4000 ( rectifier + 4x12 cab. )over a rack unity costing $1500 less and can deliver any sound and effect you could possibly want, would be insane, but people do buy them, so I guess I'm not the only one who prefers the real thing.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/11/2014 11:47:19 PM

Like I said, I have a mesa rig and real amps are great...and technology advances.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/12/2014 5:32:14 AM

Yes it advances, but Mesa rectifier still sounds better so it doesn't do me much good.

I'm not paying $2500 for a downgrade.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/12/2014 6:31:56 AM

No one said you should. Do what works for you. This discussion has to do with acknowledging that music creation is in the hands of the creator. What doesn't work for you can work for someone else. And badass music results and appreciation of the artist and their abilities outweigh any perceived or misperceived associated technical issues.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: b.complex

Date:11/12/2014 3:19:16 PM

That argument always kills me.

When it comes to PLAYING an amp, and FEELING it - real amps tend to feel "better" - but I laugh at those that don't think digital simulations and software "sound as good" - there have been plenty of shootouts with these things over the years, and even experienced players and producers can't tell the difference more than half the time anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2THDomwV-s

LOL.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:11/12/2014 5:39:36 PM

"Sure SM57 is a cheap mic, but it has a sound people like."

I used to run IT for a small factory that made telephone parts. One of our products was a super-cheap & scummy earphone element, mostly plastic & aluminum. The sound was atrocious, but it was good enough for voice and cheap enough to sell by the 10's of thousands a day. Where am i going with this? ...

Remember the good ol' Shure "Green Bullet" microphone that was the long time favorite of harmonica players for it's oddly raspy and distorted sound? It was a horrible microphone as far as audio quality was concerned, but it delivered the sound that people wanted in that situation. Well, for about 3 decades, Shure bought that cheap scummy rotten earphone element from us and used it as the transducer in the Green Bullet!

<not kidding>

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: ClipMan

Date:11/12/2014 6:23:35 PM

@ and used it as the transducer in the Green Bullet!

Kelly, when you first start out making music, most of us scour the Net looking for tips on recording, mixing, hardware etc. You go to forums where someone is raving about how good the 57's or some other equipment is and how every pro has one in their studio. 99% of the time, this was what the poster read on another forum somewhere and it gets repeated a million times. Same for other stuff. But you're starting out and you buy it and you get disappointed and the next time you buy something better. Best advice I ever picked up on the Net was (1) Have a reference track of the sound/music/instrument you want your stuff to sound like. (2) Spend time being ONLY an engineer and getting your input to sound like the reference track. (3) Do your musician/artist stuff after the first two.

Brian

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/12/2014 9:44:18 PM

>>>>but I laugh at those that don't think digital simulations and software "sound as good" -<<<<

In your youtube example they both sound terrible. It's like heavy metal for my little pony show, neither heavy, nor metal, just noise. Completely lacking any smoothness a good tube amp should have.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: b.complex

Date:11/13/2014 9:40:42 AM

So you don't like that particular sound, and that is your opinion deusx - but they sound pretty much the SAME, which is my point. The amp sim is emulating the real deal so closely to the point of insignificance.

There have been other "shootouts" with producers and players listening back to tracks and having a very, very difficult time telling a recorded amp from an amp sim once the track is laid down. And they get it wrong more than half the time. And that is really the point. PLAYING through an amp is definitely a different experience - but the resulting recorded tone is often (as in this Randall example) close enough to be negligible.

I've heard lots of head to head examples and although there are often DIFFERENCES, many are subtle, and the modeled sounds are DEFINITELY not only usable, but nice tones in their own right. TO dismiss all modeling software as CRAP is just wrong. I mean, what are you doing on a ACID forum, when the only way to record anything is direct to 2" tape? Everything else sounds like crap. ;-) See my point?

Part II: Musicians keep getting hung up on this - they compare things to other things instead of appreciating the thing for what it is. Instead of asking "Does this $200 piece of software sound EXACTLY like a $2500 amp mic'ed up in a professional studio using a $10,000 processing chain?" They should ask "Does this $200 piece of software produce musically useful tones for recording my songs?" And the answer to that second question is YES a thousand times over

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/13/2014 10:00:24 AM

Well said b. Glad we're on the same page. Imo you spent a bit of time composing your response to "educate" someone who doesn't care about the computer side of guitar...or seems not to. This is obvious from his references and the fact I pointed him to the AxeFX.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/13/2014 10:23:09 AM

>>>Musicians keep getting hung up on this - they compare things to other things<<<

Well I am neither hung up on anything nor really go out to compare. I play a 1986 Steinberger ( bought then ) through a 1990 or 1991 Mesa dual rectifier. I have had no need to look for anything else since I bought that, but you hang around with other musicians and go to music stores and try different things, that's all.

All modeling is not necessarily crap, but it's just not what they claim it is. Most of it is total garbage though, especially DAW plugins ( I've probably tried a dozen of them ). Axe fx sounds OK, but it seems like it would be a downgrade from the rectifier.

I've always cared about computer side of it and have been using different modeling things and little boxes since the original rockman in the early 1980s.
Got my first guitar synth ( Roland ) back in 1984 too.
That is why I know what they are not. They are not the rectifier and that is what I want. Direct recording is for practice or late night sessions when you can't be loud. A sansamp pedal will do, some software plugin won't, not even there, hey I tried, just doesn't work for me..

If you use ACID as a DAW then this definitely warrants a discussion on Guitar-amp-mic. That is what the original post was asking.

>>>>Does this $200 piece of software produce musically useful tones for recording my songs?<<<<<

In my case the answer is a definite no, not when guitar sounds are in question.

.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: b.complex

Date:11/13/2014 3:07:21 PM

Here is a good read:
http://www.emusician.com/how-to/1334/showdown-at-the-clubhouse--amp-software-vs-amps/40821

"In total, the panelists were able to tell the real amp from the modelers only 38.5 percent of the time."

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/13/2014 10:29:42 PM

Like I said, I'm not one of those guys who reads up too much into what's on the internet and all these comparisons.

The only thing I care about is what it sounds like to me, when I plug in, put my own headphones on and play. These other tests could be lies, fakes, paid for, I don't know nor do I care. Only my ears can determine what works for me. Same for the original poster, just try it both ways and pick the one you prefer.

If a modeler works for you use it. I have no need for it at this point in time.

I got Peavey's ReValver as some kind of a deal when I bough Samplitude. I don't have it installed any more. 90 percent of it sounded like crap, 10 percent was usable, but usable like my guitar and solid state amp were back in the mid 80s. It sounds like a big step back.

If I listen to Buckethead or Malmsteen, two completely different sounds, but in both cases, even through all those Buckethead's effects I can hear that the basic guitar sound is good.

I listen to somebody like Petrucci it sounds like $hit ( modelers ). I should say when I tried to listen to dream theater, just couldn't do it. Then again, they have always sounded like the worst band on the planet, even before axe fx. Another issue is that many of these guys get paid to say they use certain things when they really don't. It's always been like that.

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TlvoXg9M7w

They have some guy playing through axe fx, 3rd or 4th example is Rectifier red channel and no, that is not even close to what a rectifier sounds unless you are purposefully trying hard to make it sound brittle and crappy. Could be the guitar he's using too, just sounds too weak.

The best sounding part in that whole demo is the intro song and I bet they used real tube amps on it.

There is some usable stuff, mostly clean sounds, or slightly crunchy ones, , but you can get that from a $150 SansAmp.

In your favor this guy. Here I finally hear some usable heavy sounds and he does a good job of letting you hear just one unprocessed guitar ( not great ) then ads more.

[link]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3vdra-gxJ0 The beginning sounds bad, but there are some decent sounds later on. Rectifier simulation is around the 24:30 and it's not bad after he's tweaked it with some other fx and eq.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: b.complex

Date:11/17/2014 10:32:00 AM

That's funny, because being someone that doesn't listen to that kind of music - all that high gain stuff sounds like various shades of "crap" to me. :-)

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:11/17/2014 3:22:37 PM

Apart from advice received here, you could do worse that pick up some magasines such as "Recording" and "Sound On Sound" to point you in the right direction.

geoff

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:11/17/2014 3:25:43 PM

@ Shure SM57 .
I greatly prefer 57s on guitar amps to my 421s. I find the 421s comparatively thin and screechy.

@Shure PG-anything
You get what you pay for ......

geoff

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:11/17/2014 3:33:23 PM

A bit hard, but not impossible, to play the instrument and have it physically interacting with a virtual amp.

geoff

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: deusx

Date:11/18/2014 3:37:32 AM

>>>>That's funny, because being someone that doesn't listen to that kind of music - all that high gain stuff sounds like various shades of "crap" to me<<<<

I don't listen to it either. I only skip to good guitar parts., but I do like hi-gain sounds. They can be used for any kind of music, not just metal.

>>>>A bit hard, but not impossible, to play the instrument and have it physically interacting with a virtual amp>>>

How I would describe it..... when you push the string down against a fret and play a note, a tube amp pushes back, it feels like you are manipulating something solid.When you play with these fake ones they don't, it feels dead, sterile, flat, whatever you'd use to describe it.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: bummblefly

Date:7/17/2015 5:59:17 PM

i got into the vst thing recently just becouse i couldnt afford the real hardware.its a bummer reading that lat post about all guitar plug ins are no good.

Subject:RE: How to input musical instruments into the mixer

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:7/20/2015 10:23:33 PM

That's a bit subjective. Try some and see if they do what you want to the quality you want.

geoff