Best Over All Codec?

i c e wrote on 8/22/2014, 11:18 PM
Hello Everyone,

So you all helped me find the camera and get started (thank you!!). I've shot (what I believe are) some pretty amazing timelapses in America's best National Parks. I am now working in AfterEffects ( I hope I can mention that program here with out any haters:) to render the RAW files out to video.

I really have no idea what codecs are all about, but I need to render them out to a video file that is good for DVD (final use) and also some web stuff. Is it possible to use one video file that will be okay for both? Do I need to do one render for DVD and another for Web?
What's an easy codec for Vegas/ Adobe Programs that I will need to use a bit (like Premier) to read and work with?

It says AVI is loss-less so I am thinking that is best but am worried about file size ( I am going to have a lot of files) and having enough storage. I ran into a problem a few years back where Cineform files were just too big.

Last thing I will add is that this I am trying to do this project as close to professional quality as possible. It will be projected in HD around the world and I need it to be as best as I can but with in the constraints of what's realistic for my workflow.

Thanks so much everyone for any help.

Joshua

Comments

Jedman wrote on 8/23/2014, 3:44 AM
Hey mate,
I dont mean this to sound condescending at all..... but you have a mountain of learning in front of you.
There is no fast answer to your question but heres a few leads. You will need to explore further yourself.
Dont use avi uncompressed, the file sizes will cripple you. Search Avid Dnxhd and use an appropriate frame size of your original footage.
You will want different files for web and dvd, and another version to display in HD around the world at your screenings.
OMG. Just read that Cineform is too big for you.... You are in trouble. Cineform is the best bang for buck you can get.

As stated, do some reading and get back here and ask questions when you need too.
Good luck.
ushere wrote on 8/23/2014, 3:55 AM
mxf or xdcam matching your source.

then to whatever.

(head down), unless you're looking at heavy duty compositing, or multigenerational work any loss from using the above two codec as intermediaries is going to be negligible to none existent to the eye.
i c e wrote on 8/23/2014, 9:16 PM
Thanks Guys.

Seems I always have a mountain of learning to climb in front of me, a mountain with lot's of false summits. lol.

I think mxf is a good option. I might check out cineform again too. Isn't Cineform a version of avi?

Someone said that I should use Quicktime>JPEG Sequence but I don't really understand what a "jpeg sequence" is.... any ideas?



Thanks so much as I keep searching., :)

j
Serena Steuart wrote on 8/24/2014, 1:35 AM
Hi Joshua,
AVI files may be uncompressed or compressed, and Cineform (which you'll use for digital intermediates) allows various compression levels so you can choose to match your needs. When rendering for publication you will need different renders for internet and DVD (internet bit rates are lower) and the various web services (e.g. Vimeo) provide the information needed. There are a few threads about rendering, such as http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=898070discussion 1[/link], http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=903217discussion 2[/link] and http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=898503discussion 3[/link]. There are certainly more.
i c e wrote on 8/24/2014, 12:56 PM
Thank you Serena,

I will certainly read those discussions (and everything else I can find).

I think I may need to clarify here a bit though, I DO understand that for final renders I will need to render to different formats for DVD and web. However, I am rendering out about 40-60 ten to thirty second clips of time-lapse footage from RAW to video... and wondering what would be the best codec for these that once I assemble into Vegas would experience the lease loss possible to go to MP4 for Web and MPEG2 for DVD....

I hope I am being clear and appreciate the help very much.

Joshua
john_dennis wrote on 8/24/2014, 1:16 PM
Last time I did that, I used Sony MXF HD 422 1920x1080-24p 50 Mbps.

In later versions of Vegas Pro you could use XAVC HD 1920x1080 Intra 23.976p which will produce files with about twice the bit rate.
Serena Steuart wrote on 8/24/2014, 9:16 PM
OK, I think your question is about "which digital intermediate to use" and several good options have been identified in answers above. In your initial post I understand that you have already rendered your RAW files to video, which means you have already chosen your DI codec. There would seem no reason to change that. If you haven't yet gone to a DI then I'd be inclined to Cineform, but the other suggested codecs are also excellent.
i c e wrote on 8/25/2014, 6:35 PM
Thanks again all...

What do you guys think about using the Quicktime (mov)>> photo-jpeg 100% quality?

Cineform and .mxf are not available in After Effects render settings (I thought for sure they would be.. I thought Adobe was supposed to be so great? lol).

Thanks so much,

Joshua
videoITguy wrote on 8/25/2014, 7:23 PM
Best overall digital intermediate codec is Cineform. Did YOU KNOW that Cineform is a codec? And that Cineform comes in both .avi and .mov wrappers? And that Cineform is one form of codec that can be rewrapped readily without loss so you can move one file between wrappers?
Did YOU KNOW that Cineform is a codec that can be moved between OS platforms and is available in VegasPro as well as Adobe video market products?
i c e wrote on 8/25/2014, 11:06 PM
No, videoITguy, I didn't know any of that, at all. Thank you very much.

Any idea how I can get Cineform into After Effects (or like a tutorial on the topic)?

again, thank you for enlightening me.

J
ushere wrote on 8/25/2014, 11:56 PM
are you sure about no mxf in ae?

not in front of my pc at the moment but i'm sure i've used mxf - render queue

it's there under custom render....
videoITguy wrote on 8/26/2014, 5:24 AM
Cineform is traditionally a licensed and dongle install for achieving the codec on a given OS platform. That has changed a little bit in recent years with GoPro acquistion of the company. See the GoPro site for more details.
Paul Fierlinger wrote on 8/26/2014, 7:18 AM
If I remember correctly, anything rendered with the GoPro Cineform was not possible to send to another person's computer unless they also had a GoPro license. I ran into this snag when I was collaborating with another editor who was working in an edit-rental facility. Is this still the case?
videoITguy wrote on 8/26/2014, 10:30 AM
Paul, please study my post just above yours very carefully. In those lines is the detail a person needs to understand the issue about moving files from one installation to another.

Now, take the special case of say, you are encoding Cineform on one Windows PC of say VegasPro9 origin and you want to use the same file on another installation say of VegasPro 13 or whatever...

Cineform comes with a media player driven hook which means that the second installation can be equipped with the decode section only for license lifetime free use.....So then ... your digital intermediate ingested on the timeline can be used in an extended workflow production step on the second installation.
DeadRadioStar wrote on 8/27/2014, 4:55 PM
Seeing as this thread seems to have turned into a discussion about digital intermediates, what about DNxHD? The problem I see with Cineform is that it's proprietary and there's no straigtforward way to obtain the codec .... apart from installing the freebie from GoPro, which means -- you have to install the freebie from GoPro (what if you don't want to do that on a dedicated video workstation?) and I can see any way of installing only the codec.

DNxHD on the other hand is at least in part "free" as in the source code is obtainable under license, so presumably more than one manufacturer will eventually pick up on it.

With Cineform, I'm not totally comfortable with archiving into a format that may become unusable on future OS versions if the company goes to the wall.
videoITguy wrote on 8/27/2014, 5:33 PM
Dead...You don't make any points in your proposition - given
1) Both Cineform and Avid LE Codec are free
2) Both Cineform and Avid are proprietary
3) Cineform has been in a quiet evolution meaning issues are relatively transparent while AVID maintains very tight proprietary reins over their true industry codec which is a different animal than the LE series....
4) It can be argued with great technical finesse that given workflows of Cineform and Avid LE series do not compete but have their own advantages - generally I would favor Cineform over the run of multi-generations - a most typical problem with VegasPro workflows. Avid may speak to some cross platform transfers but that is not a typical VegasPro user scenario.
Former user wrote on 8/27/2014, 6:37 PM
DeadRadioStar,

I avoid all of this by using uncompressed for intermediates. It renders faster, is not proprietary and works. Ties up a lot of disk space, but if you are in video without a lot of disk space, that is a problem. You can always delete them when they are done.
NormanPCN wrote on 8/27/2014, 6:45 PM
The problem I see with Cineform is that it's proprietary

Cineform is a SMPTE standard these days, VC-5. Much like DNxHD is VC-3. Even with the standards there is some control by the source companies, but if a company disappears then SMPTE is still there with rights.

DNxHD sample source code is free for non commercial use and I have no idea about commercial licensing rules or fees.

I asked GoPro/Cineform in the Cineform forum about the possibility of getting Cineform into the ffmpeg/libavcodec code base, and their response was we have gone the standards route. No answer about licensing rules, if any, or sample code. So the rules are vague and I had no interest in pursing it further.
mdindestin wrote on 8/27/2014, 9:12 PM
I seem to recall problems with converting to Cineform AVI files from Canon DSLR MOV files in Windows 8. I was told there will be no fix as support has ended.

That's an example of why Avid may be a better long term bet.
videoITguy wrote on 8/27/2014, 9:41 PM
The best way to convert while remaining trouble free is to take Canon DSLR ( Canon T5i) in this case and use the Cineform app to convert them directly to a transcoded digital intermediate. This avoids the problems associated with color space, gamma, etc bias that a given NLE on a given OS platform might introduce.
Doing it now as we speak preparing DI's for import into VegasPro13 projects.
mdindestin wrote on 8/28/2014, 6:36 AM
videoTguy, Are you on Windows 8.1?
videoITguy wrote on 8/28/2014, 9:05 AM
There are only two OS platforms that I would use for video edit -WinXPSrvcPk3 32bit and Win764bit. Never 8.0+ and not likely 9.
OldSmoke wrote on 8/28/2014, 9:22 AM
There are only two OS platforms that I would use for video edit -WinXPSrvcPk3 32bit and Win764bit.

+1 to that.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

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Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Guy S. wrote on 8/28/2014, 10:44 AM
If you only want to create one file for web/DVD/BluRay...

MP4 1920 x 1080 24p

Can be uploaded to YouTube/Vimeo and I can import it into Adobe Encore for DVD authoring - Encore will automatically transcode the file as necessary for to DVD and/or BluRay.

Since switching to Encore I have not rendered anything in a DVD specific format, I just let Encore take care of it and have been pleased with the results.