Handbrake vs new TMPGEnc?

NickHope wrote on 4/28/2014, 8:56 PM

Wow, thanks for this post. I didn't know TMPGEnc had started using x264. That is good news, since x264 is the "best" encoder in my opinion. They used to use a version of the Main Concept encoder.

Yes, x264 is also what Handbrake uses. They are likely different versions of x264. which is very regularly updated.

I have always been able to frameserve to TMPGEnc programs, including 4.0 Xpress which was the predecessor of Mastering Works, so I expect this will be the same. But note that the Frameserver is not yet working (to any program) from VP13.

Also note that there are other free utilities beside Handbrake that can encode x264, and that can take a frameserved file. The one I use is MeGUI, but one has to feed it a via a very simple AviSynth script. But TMPGEnc products are very robust and usually user-friendly. MeGUI is not very intuitive.

EDIT: TMPGEnc Mastering Works probably doesn't have as good deinterlacing as Handbrake, if that concerns you. Certainly 4.0 Xpress didn't.

Hulk wrote on 4/28/2014, 8:58 PM

I don't know about VP13 but I've been frameserving VP12 to Ripbot since it's release. Quality is fantastic.

musicvid10 wrote on 4/28/2014, 9:25 PM

I downloaded Ripbot but found it requires some codec packs I've had trouble with in the past.

@MikeLV, those are all x264 compression settings -- not particularly important unless someone messes them up.

It would be interesting to see how the new tmpgenc handles decomb / deinterlace. That's one of Handbrake's most important features.

MikeLV wrote on 4/28/2014, 9:48 PM

I'm not very technical but it appears from those compression settings, that you would be able to duplicate the config you created for the handbrake tutorial. I sent an email to TMPGEnc earlier today and asked them which resize algorithm they use and deinterlace method so I will update when they reply.

musicvid10 wrote on 4/28/2014, 10:04 PM

MikeLV,
The Handbrake tutorial uses minimal compression, barely above Baseline. Takes less time to encode, and less time to process by YT. The file size tradeoff is ~5%.
So duplicating the compression is not much of an issue.

Rob Franks wrote on 4/28/2014, 10:08 PM

I have both programs and both are very good. Prefer handbrake though. It picks up the subtitle file found in sony MTS files and allows you to burn them in. TMPGEnc is like vegas in that it does not recognize (and scraps) the subtitle file.

MikeLV wrote on 4/28/2014, 10:36 PM

Rob, other than the subtitle issue, does TMPGEnc's program rival handbrake? I'm looking at this from a time saving perspective. If I can go straight from the Vegas timeline 1080i to 720P H.264 without having to do the DNxHD first, that will save me a lot of time, certainly worth the price of that software. I'm told it does a good job on MPEG2 video so that would be a plus too...

NickHope wrote on 4/28/2014, 10:42 PM

TMPGEnc 4.0 Xpress deinterlacing options:

Nothing there as advanced as Handbrake's deinterlacing, or what you can do with the likes of QTGMC in AviSynth. But that's very possibly irrelevant to you if you're only processing progressive footage. Perhaps they've added better deinterlacing such as Yadif since it became "Mastering Works"? But there's no mention of that in the specs.

TMPGEnc 4.0 Xpress resizing options:

Lanczos-3 is what Handbrake uses and is "better" (mostly in theory rather than in visible real world results) than Vegas' bicubic resizing. Lanczos-3 resizing looks as "good" to me as anything else I've used in AviSynth, such as Lanczos-4, Spline36, Spline64, Blackman.

NickHope wrote on 4/28/2014, 10:49 PM

Mike, if you have the patience to set it up, you could look at my workflow which gives excellent results for 1080i to 720p. It's what I use for all my YouTube videos. Once it's set up it's pretty fast to use, and no intermediate required. But you'll probably have to set a few hours aside to get going with it.

And yes, TMPGEnc gives great MPEG2. "Better" than Vegas' MainConcept encoder. Only CinemaCraft beats it for DVD, but the affordable CinemaCraft Basic is no longer available.

MikeLV wrote on 4/28/2014, 10:50 PM

I'm working with interlaced as my source footage as delivery will be both NTSC DVD and web video for download. Nick, your workflow looks more like a workload! ;-) to get all that set up.. I'll take a closer look, if you put that much time into developing a workflow like that, it must be good. My video won't be for Youtube, but instead for local playback after being downloaded from a site.

NickHope wrote on 4/28/2014, 11:06 PM

It's just as relevant for local playback. As there would be no re-encoding by YouTube, you'll probably want to increase the crf number to something like 23, or target a file size/bitrate instead of targeting quality.

Good luck with it, and please let me know if anything doesn't make sense, as the tutorial is a couple of years old. Feel free to PM me. When you get to the part about multi-threading, you'll probably want to be ending up using SEt's latest build (2013.09.28) of AviSynth 2.6 MT. I'm planning to make a video tutorial of my workflow when I finally get a new computer. A bit pointless while I'm still on XP.

MikeLV wrote on 4/29/2014, 5:02 PM

Hi Nick, I read through the entire guide that you linked to, it looks like a lot, on the page, but you have many screen shots which make it seem longer than it is. I'm not sure when you wrote the guide, but would you say by now that the 64 bit versions of all the tools are safe to use?

NickHope wrote on 4/29/2014, 9:35 PM

No Mike. I don't think that situation has changed at all really, especially where AviSynth-related stuff is concerned.

malowz wrote on 4/29/2014, 9:41 PM

if i recall, 30i videos made from x264 doesn't work with DVDA, so TMPGEnc won't make compatible videos too? (MBAFF incompatibility if i recall)

musicvid10 wrote on 4/29/2014, 10:07 PM

I agree, the deinterlace options in tmpgenc don't come close to Handbrake or Nick's high-level technique.

For downsizing, it is unlikely one will see much difference except in areas prone to moire, where Lanczos won over bicubic in many of my tests. In some cases, it is hard to spot an improvement in moire.

For upscaling, Lanczos is a clear winner most of the time, with or without additional sharpening.

Lanczos 3 seems to be generally favored, as Lanczos 4 gets criticized for excess ringing / piping, and some reports of blown pixels.

MikeLV wrote on 4/30/2014, 10:46 AM

Well this is the email I got back from TMPGEnc:

"It is not used any algorithm, but simply it is defined by timecode
matching, if there is not timecode present the frame is copied.
For ex. inside 1 sec. there are frames A, B, C, D, then increasing the
fps it will be taken as A -> A, B -> B, C -> C, D -> D but if D does not
have time code then will be D -> D D'."

Laurence wrote on 4/30/2014, 11:03 AM

When I upload a video to Youtube or Vimeo, I set the Constant Quality on Handbrake to 10 and the audio bitrate to 384. This yields quality where I simply can't see the difference between the original and the Handbrake render. It is hard to imagine improving upon this.

The one thing that I would like however is to be able to use a high quality MXF format for my intermediate without losing one of the stereo channels. Before I download and try it, can somebody tell me if TMPGEnc can use an MXF intermediate and not lose one of the stereo channels? That one thing would win me over.

MikeLV wrote on 4/30/2014, 3:46 PM

Laurence, can't you just frameserve from Vegas to TMPGEnc instead of rendering the intermediary MXF?

Laurence wrote on 4/30/2014, 4:09 PM

I suppose. I kind of like doing it with intermediates though, and I really haven't seen any quality loss from the extra generation.

Why do I like the intermediates? A couple of reasons: I do slightly different renders for Youtube or Vimeo then I do for theater playback. I also render full normalized volume from Vegas and lower it back with the Handbrake audio level control. Sometimes it takes a couple of tries to get it just right and Handbrake renders are so fast.

amendegw wrote on 4/30/2014, 4:19 PM

I'm a committed believer in Handbrake, but one could always use the Yadif Deinterlace for Sony Vegas to deinterlace in Vegas and then Frameserve to TMPGEnc.

...Jerry

dxdy wrote on 4/30/2014, 5:05 PM

TMPGEnc 5 reads VPro generated Sony MXF files but does not produce either audio channel when I render to MPG2 with embedded audio!

However, when I asked TMPGEnc to encode just the audio, it produced an ac3 file just fine.

I have always frameserved to TMPGEnc. Last I heard frameserve was broken in 13, but the new SVP 13 build may have fixed that. I haven't downloaded it so I can't tell.

FYI, TMPGEnc 5 won't read Canon MXF files at all (from Canon XF100).

Edited for clarity and to report ac3 result.

dxdy wrote on 4/30/2014, 5:10 PM

TMPGEnc uses Lanczos-3 for resizing! It also offers Bicubic, Triangle, Linear, Nearest Neighbor, and "Normal".

MikeLV wrote on 4/30/2014, 5:13 PM

Jerry, does that Yadif deinterlace plugin work as well as Handbrake's? If so, since the resizing algorithm is the same as Handbrake, and now uses x264 as well, then it seems we can frameserve from Vegas directly to TMPGEnc and eliminate the need for the DNxHD.

amendegw wrote on 4/30/2014, 5:21 PM

"Jerry, does that Yadif deinterlace plugin work as well as Handbrake's?Since Handbrake also uses Yadif, I'm pretty sure the deinterlacing will be identical.

What I do know is the Vegas Yadif video event FX slows the render considerably.

...Jerry