Subject:Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Posted by: b.complex

Date:10/24/2013 10:44:38 PM

Today, for me, was the last straw.

I had already migrated several projects over to Studio One over the past several months, but decided that I SHOULD be able to finish at least ONE project in ACID. After ACID Pro continued to crash when using KONTAKT 5 and Superior Drummer 2 in the same project, I "upgraded" via a special offer to ACID Music Studio. (It was a good price and included a free loop library, so what the heck?) I initially found it to be a much more STABLE host for KONTAKT and Superior Drummer, as long as I didn't push it too hard.

Then, today, after weeks of tweaking MIDI drums and a MIDI bass line, and cutting up real guitar parts into a nice arrangement...ACID froze up when I added a THIRD instrument to KONTAKT. Okay, this had happened before. But when I shut it down and tried to reopen both the actual file and the recent backup file...both were "missing" something. Huh??? Yep. I just lost about three weeks of "tweaking" work all because ACID is a really, really, really, unstable host. I should have known better.

Here is where it gets interesting. My composition included some of the "big drums" from the old "Voices of Native America" library. HUGE low end. and they always had a strange "ring" to them, which I chalked up to overdriving my midline Fostex powered monitors. Also, one of my guitar lines I was running through a Waves signature series plugin and it had a similar sustained "ring" at the end of a sustained phrase. I never understood it.

Today I found an older version of the same song, which did NOT include all of my drum and bass tweaks, and is missing my recently recorded guitar lines, but after the loss of all of my work, I decided I needed to migrate this project to Studio One ASAP. I set about rendering out what I could and exporting MIDI.

After importing all of those MIDI and audio tracks and some of the same loops that I used in ACID, do you know what I found??? NONE of that low-end ringing. None. No strange sustained ringing noises even with the same plugins! NONE.

Key takeways from today:

1. ACID is a terribly unstable VST host if you are using any modern (updated within the last couple of years) VSTi's or VST effects.

2. Whatever audio processing or dithering or whatever the heck ACID is doing to your tracks is BAD - at least in the monitoring stage. My exported tracks (thank God) sounded GOOD in Studio One. Clean, crisp, and NO RINGING ARTIFACTS or strange stuff on the low end. But in ACID itself- terrible in comparison. Why? What is ACID doing to the audio???

3. ACID's autosave/backup will hang if you use "too much" in the way of VSTi's and VST's...and the files may end up being corrupted when you have to manually shut down the program. (A 40 minute "hang time" is enough to decide that you should shut it down manually...)

In short, this was the last straw for me trying to do ANYTHING in ACID in its current state. As wonderfully quick and easy it always was to get an arrangement up and running with ACID is offset by the instability and unreliability of the program itself.

As a long time user of ACID (Since version 2.0) it's with a heavy heart that I say "Today I learned my lesson" - I never really realized how much of an audio QUALITY compromise I was making with ACID until today, on top of everything else.

.02

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:10/25/2013 11:37:15 AM

As a long time user of ACID (Since version 2.0) it's with a heavy heart that I say "Today I learned my lesson" - I never really realized how much of an audio QUALITY compromise I was making with ACID until today, on top of everything else.

Can't really speak to the quality (ACID vs S1) but totally agree on the stability angle. ACID is simply not even close to being able to properly stage a standard project these days...so I use it sparely as a sketch tool.

Studio One is where the serious work happens.

VP

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: deusx

Date:10/26/2013 6:12:51 AM

>>>>it's with a heavy heart that I say "Today I learned my lesson<<<

You haven't learned anything until you learn why that was happening because it's definitely not ACID.

Any DAW just records binary code, sound you hear depends on your sound card and has nothing to do with your DAW. If you had some screwed up effects and time stretching going on, that could have caused it, but that is your fault not ACID's

Anyway. I prefer to use Vegas as my DAW, but just this week i got Addictive drums and decided to try them out in ACID ( Vegas doesn't do Midi ).

Almost finished a whole song in an afternoon. Adding a drum track, playing around/editing midi on the timeline to add drum breaks and other things, bunch of guitars and bass on another 6-7 tracks. Nothing crashed and everything sounded fine.

I may end up building drum tracks in ACID then exporting that to Vegas, or I may end up doing the whole thing in ACID. Either way I don't see any problems. Any DAW will do. It's far more important to come up with something good to play than to obsess over which DAW does this or that. They have all been more or less the same thing since 2007 or so.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: b.complex

Date:10/26/2013 9:07:59 AM

Actually there are two lessons, one is that because ACID is so unstable it can mean catastrophic loss of weeks worth of work. That has EVERYTHING to do with ACID.

The sound issue is something that perplexes me. The rendered files sound fine - but while the project is open in ACID, it has that ringing. I can't find anything on the busses that should be causing this - the only thing I can assume is that there is something going on with the headroom while working in ACID. I've read lots and lots of articles about how all DAW's sound "the same" because they are just recording code, and on paper that may be true, but on paper tubes and transistors do the same things as well. Maybe it's because Studio One is a 64 bit app and maybe the audio processing "under the hood" is more efficient or accurate, but the bottom line is that ACID is completely unreliable as a host for anything, and there is a NOTICEABLE difference in the way things sound in Studio One vs. ACID especially in the low end. I am not the first one to discover this actually, and others on this very forum have had similar experiences.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: deusx

Date:10/26/2013 11:53:11 AM

>>> because ACID is so unstable<<<

You can read the same on other forums about Samplitude, Sonar or whatever DAW.
Either complaints about them being slow and clunky or crashing. Then other people praise them as the best thing ever devised.

I don't use ACID that much as a DAW, but may start using it more since I just got Addictive drums. Neither Vegas nor ACID have been unstable for me, ever.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: b.complex

Date:10/26/2013 5:15:17 PM

Try this: Load up Superior Drummer in ACID. Now load the EVIL DRUMS Sample Library. It will crash.

Try this: Load KONTAKT 5 in ACID. Load two instruments..ok. Load three...maybe.. or three will make it crash. Three instruments in KONTAKT seem to be the tipping point, depending on the library. It will crash.

If you are just playing with loops and samples, great, but as a host for proper VST's - ACID is extremely unstable, and while no DAW or any other software is "perfect" by any means- ACID is exceptionally unstable. I really don't understand trying to "defend" ACID in this regard.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:10/26/2013 11:20:20 PM

I dunno; I've tried loading a 64+-piece orchestra (using several instances of Garritan Personal Orchestra 4; think I used like 4 or 5 different instances since they only hold like 16 instruments apiece). Seemed to work fine. Never crashed on me anyhoo.

(I only did this to see if there was a difference in sound versus using just patches of string sections. Short answer: Not really.)

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: deusx

Date:10/27/2013 7:19:39 AM

>>>ACID is exceptionally unstable. I really don't understand trying to "defend" ACID in this regard. <<<

I don't have superior drummer, I have addictive drums and until this week I've been using drums from my Korg M3 which don't really need any MIDI. I would program them on board the M3 then just record in Vegas. So I can only speak about my experience with ACID, Addictive drums and recording real stuff like guitars, bass, vocals and so far no problems, worked instantly without any problems.

I've been checking out Samplitude and downloaded studio one too. Most of these look a little nicer than ACID, so if I do switch it may be just for that. If I am going to be staring at some MIDI editing layout might as well be a nice looking one.

One thing I did notice though. Basic Function wise they all seem like copies of ACID. Didn't ACID/Sony invent the whole looping and drawing stuff directly on the timeline?

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: Kit

Date:10/27/2013 8:54:18 AM

Not Sony - Sonic Foundry. Sony bought Sonic Foundry out and things gradually got less innovative and less stable.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: deusx

Date:10/28/2013 12:12:27 PM

I think I just may go with Samplitude.

Trying out that and Studio one. Advantage Samplitude so far.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:10/29/2013 2:56:54 PM

Professional work happens in Acid Pro. I use it exclusively. My limitation seems to be due to an aging processor. But I still have all the tracks I need. Processing times seem a bit long but project complexity is obviously suspect. However, Sony would need to make dramatic changes to (the theoretical) AP8 for it to affect my current workflow. So to Sony I still say "Bring it!"

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:10/30/2013 10:29:57 PM

"Professional work happens in Acid Pro. I use it exclusively.

dudewidaplan"

That's an interesting statement...and I'm sure others use it as well.

What I found to be most interesting about that notion (e.g. using ACID in a professional environment), is the possibility that "Sony" does not appear to be using ACID in their game development studios.

My point of reference is the September 2013 "Mix" magazine which features the new Sony Computer Entertainment America production studios. The Cover Story is entitled " PLAYSTATION SOUND" New Sony Facilities Up The Ante In Game Audio. In the article they discuss the new facilities in California, all the new hardware, the studio design features, the personnel, the workstation interoperability, some of the popular Game Titles, etc..

What's missing is any discussion of ACID Pro. They mentioned the various Pro Tools workstations used by the designers/editors but there was NO mention of ACID or ACID Loops. This would have been a great opportunity to highlight that huge commercial loop library Sony owns.

So, they use Pro Tools, but not ACID? Could it just be an oversight by the "Mix" magazine editing staff? Or is the Playstation Sound Group simply not using ACID Pro or ACID Loops?

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:10/31/2013 6:20:39 AM

Thanks for the article reference. I was hugely interested in game design in the 90s and worked as scorist/sound designer for a small company. Being a proud owner of an EPS16+ I was right at home with the ASR10 they had on hand. Very cool board. i later added the rack version to my collection. That short, fun opportunity was the beginning of a rewarding vocation change that branched into roads that transported me to where I am.

Game design is fascinating and its software requirements are deep and mysterious and often, proprietary apps are created...as well as off-the-shelf sometimes being the best option. In full agreement that it would've been a ripe opportunity for Sony. I believe in that scenario, however, Acid was not the right tool, as game studios usually coordinate with others during development and "universality" may have prevailed. Could they have used Acid in their workflow? Certainly. It's probably on a few developers systems. Maybe it came down to personal preference or supervisor's call.

AP7 - for me - is a song creation tool and works awesomely. I hardly ever use loops but always acknowledge that it can with aplomb. Getting a satisfying experience with AP (imo) is concurrent with the hardware being used. If my processor was top-of-the-line my renders (and time at the helm) would be cut in half. Still I'm all smiles when, after a session, I realize I just produced something that required a group to pull off. Thanks again Sony.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: b.complex

Date:10/31/2013 8:08:41 AM

I have no doubt that "professional" work can be done with ACID. I've used it for years for my own personal projects and some for which I was paid.

But if you are running modern VSTi's such as Superior Drummer, KONTAKT, and PLAY (EastWest) You are going to be tapping into some libraries that will tax your system. If you want to make full use of your computer as a workstation, you will want a 64 bit OS, running 64 bit apps, accessing all of your processor cores and all of your RAM. ACID cannot keep up. It is unstable and crashes when trying to use things that Studio One handles with ease.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: fartheststar

Date:11/14/2013 7:45:33 PM

re: "AP7 - for me - is a song creation tool and works awesomely."

I very much like acid for songwriting also. The interface is good for 1 man operations. I do use drum loops, and it's nice when sketching out a song to be able to grab a matching groove, put it in there, grab a few fills, etc - it's nice to work that way.

If i'm recording my own loops (guitar) it's nice to work with also - and then piece the sonic ideas together. Ableton Live is good for this also, but I like Acid's layout/interface better.

Subject:RE: Other DAW's sound better than ACID...seriously

Reply by: AudioVizionz

Date:11/14/2013 9:25:03 PM

Indeed. I nearly always start with midi and AP7e has been capable - especially with odd meters, which I use profusely. Recently I upgraded to Win7u and only return to XP when I want to access Gigastudio (as I haven't had any success installing it on the new os). As I await a new Sony i7 tab (already confirming compatibility with all my apps for Win8.1 except Kontakt 4) I'm eager to see how it will perform. I may post my findings later...