Subject:SF Markers with Tempo?

Posted by: buckaroo

Date:6/12/2013 4:14:26 AM

I have been using SF for years and love the PC version, even the older v5.0 from SoFo

I have come across this pic from another user of 4.5c! and his markers have tempo and BPM info in them - heres a link to the pic which you can open full screen I believe if it doesn't already? :

http://media.soundonsound.com/sos/may12/images/KC_08.jpg

How do I get tempo info into the markers and is this typed in, or does SF work it out? - I do occasionally use Acid tools but haven't explored it in depth.

Using SF to work out its own tempo of loops like this pic would be great..and using "merged" files which some of these files seem to have?
Is that done externally (ie: using Cubase VST)? or in SF itself..

I'd love to use SF more to mould audio and as a effects processor mangling audio, and then play the results in a DAW / Multitracker like Logic/Ableton/Cubase or Reaper...

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/13/2013 11:53:16 PM

Those look like just marker labels; Sound Forge just does it a little more cleaner now (above the waveform instead on the waveform/in the way).

There are ways of working with ACIDized data (such as using the ACID Properties window) but nothing like working on the properties window for a given clip in ACID Pro (like stretch markers in the clip properties window; not sure if that's made it into Music Studio but it's definitely in ACID Pro).

You can arrange audio non-destructively in Sound Forge using regions and playlists. See this article right here on SCS from Gary Rebholz for all the gory details.

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: buckaroo

Date:6/14/2013 2:20:30 AM

Brilliant thank you - i will give that article a look....

I've been using SF for years over SoFo v5 and v8 (the only two i need really - so old and new, as one has direct mode, and the other does VST plug ins)

I've only just discovering the Auto Region > beats is a godsend!!! I used to do it the long way by hand?! but this almost recycles it!

I have the toolbar enabled for ACID TOOLS, If i cut a loop out of a section and know the BPM, then go to Special > Edit Tempo and type in the BPM, can i save this with the file? At the moment, it looks like it keeps defaulting to 120bpm when I reopen the same file, so im thinking the tempo section is a global thing on the workspace on SF?

Is there a way to highlight a section and it work out a bpm from the time? or a way of saving BPM / tempo info with the wav file? or AIFF file?

Lastly What does the 'merged' file mean in the screenshot? is there a setting for this and does it, say merge two or more files together? or is this a simple Stereo > Mono file 'merged' ?

Sorry for all the questions, but i am still learning this side, as im used to straight forward editing in SF, and its still one of the best editors out there


Im just trying to get SF to do the majority of my sound making and fx processing, and then just arrange them in my DAW, so the better i get at SF, and beat grids, region switching etc and manipulating the better!!!

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/14/2013 3:03:39 PM

The Edit Tempo tool is basically there for your benefit; it's more of an analysis tool than anything. (Did a remix contest not tell you the tempo for a given song? This would probably be your go-to for that.) It doesn't save this info with your file.

Time and tempo are related. For example, a sample of music that's exactly 2 seconds long will fit perfectly within a tempo of 120 BPM (assuming four beats per measure). There are formulas for different lengths and beats but the Edit Tempo tool makes this trivial. (Still, I'd get used to and memorize them just in case you're away from your computer.)

The Navigation toolbar will tell you the approximate tempo of a particular selection (via the Tempo indicator). Unfortunately, it always assumes a four-beat selection, though you can set the selection grid lines on your own and use the Edit Tempo tool otherwise for odd-numbered beats.

The only way you can actually save tempo (or even key) info is to ACIDize it using the ACID Properties window.

The "merged" file simply looks like it was named that way by the author (probably for organization purposes). The author probably opened a new window and started mixing files that way since Sound Forge lets you drag and drop (and mix) amongst open windows.

BTW, discover any of the synthesis generators yet? (Insert > Synthesis > FM, Simple). VSTis might let you do the same thing in some respects but nothing beats forming something so out there from scratch.

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: buckaroo

Date:6/21/2013 2:07:14 AM

I just want to import a 6 minute full song and set it up with a BPM of my choosing (ie: if its 138bpm original, I could type in the tempo info/Acid settings in SF, that its 140bpm) and it would be saved as part of the file.

i thought this would be something to do with the length of the file even in beats/bars, which is the guess work - if a track is 6 minutes+ how do we find out the bars/lenght?

A step through would be good though as its probably really easy with the SF/Acid combo?

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/22/2013 4:19:31 PM

You can certainly gauge what the tempo is (using the above-mentioned methods) and ACIDize the file as Beatmapped that way. Still, if there are offsets and such (like tempo breaks), ACID Pro might be your best bet (or maybe the last stop in the workflow) since that has tools that allow even the slightest drift to "lock" onto a given tempo.

Say you have a file you definitely know is in a tempo of 120 BPM. You could ACIDize the file as such in Sound Forge, then insert that into an ACID project and open the properties to work with the tempo markers under the Stretch tab should you be concerned with tempo drift, then save the file for use in other DAWs if you'd like. (I don't know the extent of what the other DAWs do with the tempo markers in a Beatmapped file, though. Your mileage may vary.)

The latter part is optional; it's not needed if you definitely know that the file was digitally created in the first place *and* the tempo is consistent throughout.

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: buckaroo

Date:6/23/2013 1:26:57 PM

Hi, yes all my tracks in Acid or importing into Acid will be constant tempo on drum machines as they are Techno tracks and Dance tracks, so they should all be a constant round number tempo like 140Bpm etc.

In SF before I get to Acid, can I save the first downbeat (with a marker?) and type in the tempo i'd "LIKE" - ie: if its 139 and I don't know this, but i'd prefer for it to be beatmapped and locked at 140Bpm?

Is there a way to do this?

I have done this in SF and it saved the BPM file. but either the first downbeat marker wasn't read? as the "original bpm" in Acid was found at 140bpm - but the track drifter out of time and not locked to the Acid Grid?

I want to take Techno tracks, lock them into Acid grid-perfect beatmapped and remix and extend parts if I can? as well as adding samples to make bootlegs.
Using SF maybe a bit easier for me as I haven't had great results from Acids Beatmapper exculsively - so doing the work and saving to file in SF maybe a more accurate way?

At the moment i'm using Ableton, but know Acid much better

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/24/2013 2:26:16 PM

Oddly, Sound Forge is supposed to save the downbeat offset but something gets a bit lost in translation in ACID. ACID practically sees all the metadata changes you've made in Sound Forge except that. Otherwise, you'd probably be able to do exactly what you want.

I'll have to make a note of this. xD

ON EDIT: Never mind. One of my files must have gone kablooey because it's working as intended on my others.

In Sound Forge, set Options > Status Format to, "Samples." Find the first downbeat, take note of the status and then enter that into the "downbeat offset" element in the ACID Properties window. Save the file.

Open ACID. Drag the file onto the timeline. The clip should begin exactly where you specified the first downbeat to begin in Sound Forge. If not, in Sound Forge, look into copying the file's data into a new window and start fresh.

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: buckaroo2002

Date:6/27/2013 2:32:41 AM

Ok so I put SF to samples, marker the first beat, and open ACID properties in SF, change to beatmapped, and input the downbeat offset with this 'first marker beat'

The i save the file and info in SF.

Open ACID, drag in this file and even the file has a gap of air before the first beat, the 'first marker beat' is found in Acid and snaps it to bar 1 beat 1 and opens in Beatmapped file.

But it still drifts,

I think the problem here is you need to know the exact tempo of the file in SF (which kinda defeats the object)? In Ableton after warping and beatmapping it "finds" the BPM and you can select then what bpm you would like it to play at completely locked to the grid..

ie: 137bpm original file you can warp and save so it always opens at say 140bpm but you still have the option to change the bpm to say 130bpm and it moves in time

In Acid I can't seem to do this - so maybe Ableton is the way forward.

(also thanks to Sony who completely forgot my forum name and made me re-register the whole account just to post this!!!)

Subject:RE: SF Markers with Tempo?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:6/27/2013 2:34:05 PM

Remember: Time and tempo are related; any deviation from that and you could have issues. A sample that's 2 seconds long fits *exactly* in a tempo of 120 BPM. If you have a sample that's, say, 2.2 seconds, it'll fit in a tempo of 109 BPM --- a difference of 1/5 of a second changes tempo drastically.

This is why it's so important to pay attention to the tools (like Edit Tempo) in Sound Forge.

As long as the file is ACIDized properly, there should be no reason why it won't stretch to fit properly in a given tempo.

That being said, what I would do is if I was constructing from Sound Forge, I'd create a blank file and start constructing on a bar-by-bar basis. You mentioned that you use the "auto region" tool, which actually works great and can help denote beats, but it's not an exact science unless you tell it to do it by measures and/or beats.

(You can see this if you open the Regions List window. I'd bet all the entries under "Length" aren't uniform when using beat detection.)

If you have a file where you know exactly how long a measure has to be, it makes it much easier when constructing Loops, etc.

Beatmapped files are a bit tougher since they're usually (much) longer files but if you want precision, there's no other way than to get your hands dirty.