Thanks. Yes I figured the 5.1 surround sound would be limited to DVD and Blu-ray discs.

Did you have to be extra quiet to avoid picking up camera operator noise in the Rear channels?

To make Vegas recognize the 5,1 audio, did you simply need to set the Project Properties' audio tab to Master Bus Mode = "5.1 Surround"?

Very interesting. First time I've seen that mic.

From 2004 onwards I've done about a dozen 2-hour projects in surround sound. I have used various Sony camcorders, most recently the venerable FX-1 (HDV).

Here is a very old photo of my earliest setup, using a Sony VX2000 camcorder. The front stereo mic was recorded to DV tape while the rear stereo mic was recorded via the small silver Minidisc (!) unit on the back of the camera. This delivered 4 separate audio channels. After the usual video editing I then brought in the rear audio, one clip at a time. Without timecode it was a pain to sync but I quickly developed a method of "tapping" the mic assembly with my wedding ring a couple of times quietly before stopping the recording. This gave me a reference sync point for front and rear audio. I need to point out that this was my very first setup; I quickly discovered that one needs a fuzzy "Windjammer" cover for the mics to greatly reduce wind noise. Foam helps, but only a little.

I did all the editing on the Vegas timeline with the front two channels on one track and the rear two on another, adjusting the properties so that the rear two played on the rear speakers in my edit suite. After doing the syncing and matching the cuts, one does the audio levels, starting with bringing up the rear level to match the front in ambient conditions. It's a very strange sensation the first time you hear it, because the ambient audio from the rear channels is just as loud as the ambient from the front--but that's the whole point of surround, yes? Then, depending on the polar diagram of each microphone, sounds can be discriminated as to direction. Pretty cool to be walking past a street musician on the famous Charles Bridge in Prague and hear his performance move behind you as you pass by. Also, surround sound is wonderful for recording concert choir performances in magnificent settings, such as the Chartres Cathedral in France. You get this remarkable sense of the acoustics of that enormous open space.

I've used surround to do a recording of "Oklahoma!" where I use the audio from my camera at the rear center of the theater for the surround tracks and a mix of pit, chorus, and actor wireless mics for the front channels. Again, it really adds a lot.

The final render of the audio for DVD uses the DolbyDigital 2/2 format. I have no use for a center channel and certainly no use for the .1 special effects channel. The encoding is at 384Kb/sec as I recall.

This kind of surround is entirely different from the surround gimmickry Hollywood does on DVDs, but that's because they don't shoot "live" per se. Their process is highly refined, with dialogue often dubbed in later along with foley effects and crowd sounds. With few exceptions the surround effect is about as honest as the car explosions in action movies (Mythbusters did a special on that and found it was really really hard to blow up a car's gasoline tank).

Finally, the camera operator needs to be very quiet as the slightest throat clearing or comment will be picked up. I note that there doesn't seem to be any sort of shock mounting for the Canon mic, so handling noise might be an issue. And if you shoot outdoors, as already mentioned a Windjammer-type cover is a must unless you like being drowned out by wind noise.

Hope this helps.

Doesn't this encode as Dolby II into stereo tracks? How do you unpack it to 6 tracks in vegas? I have another mike like this and don't use it as I can't unpack it into individual tracks.

The only software I've found that can decode it is from Minnetonka for thousands of $$.

A few of tips.
1) Any of the "single point" microphones (TetraMic, Soundfield, SM-V1 etc) are just that - they record sound at a single point in space. This means that unless you can mix in close-miced "spot mics" without "comb filtering" effects, you will get the sound at the point where your surround mic is - only.
2) It is very difficult to get a satisfactory sound from a single point location unless the musicians are producing a balanced sound at that location. I like to close mic my TetraMic but have found it only works well where the musician(s) are trained not to move their head or instrument about.
This is because of the "Giant Geese" effect of having a spatial mic really close to a sound source that is not usually heard that close.
3) Get the"front of house" tech to turn down the wedge loudspeakers that the artists use to hear what they sound like - otherwise, if you are close micing, your rear channel mices will pick up the (usually mono) sound from the FOH mics - complete with pops and sibilents etc...
4) Good wind protection is essential. I use a foam plus dead cat indoors and a Rycote Blimp outdoors on my TetraMic.
5) Best use for a surround mic I have found is Fx. Vehicles/foley etc.
6) If you have trouble importing your surround into Vegas (as I do) then try importing into Sound Forge first and then immediately save-as back over the original file. I think this is a problem with the software supplied with TetraMic though. Once I have done the save-as, then however many tracks (5.1, 4.0 etc) I am using import just fine into Vegas.
Don't forget to pan each track hard left front/hard right front etc as necessary :)

Kind of off topic but:
3) Get the"front of house" tech to turn down the wedge loudspeakers that the artists use to hear what they sound like.
As a musician and engineer, turning down the stage monitors is usually not an option. (unless there's feedback) and I don't think any FOH (or monitor) mixer would agree to it anyway.. and if he or she did, it would likely piss-off the band big time.
Other than that, bdg's other tips are worthy of consideration.

Vegas Pro 12 imports the *.mts file (BDAV container format) produced by the Canon HF-G10 with the SM-V1 surround sound mic with four audio tracks:

- two stereo tracks (Front channels, Rear channels)
- one mono track (center)
- one Low Frequency Effects (LFE) mono track

The audio from the camera is AC-3 encoded 5.1, which is exactly how Vegas Pro 12 imports it (provided the project's audio properties Master Bus Mode is set for a 5.1 Surround)

--Rob

bdq,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Two questions:

1) why are you concerned with wind noise in an indoor setting? Is your application such that the surround mic is moving?
2) Concerning your final remark on panning tracks hard left/right etc., I am assuming you are envisioning doing a 5.1 surround mix in Vegas, supplementing the tracks captured from the surround mic with other tracks, like the from spot mics placed close to the performers.

Best Regards

riredale,

Thanks for sharing your experiences, very insightful. Regarding wind noise, that was the original motivation for an camera-mounted external mic. The SM-V1 includes a windjammer, and I thought adding 5.1 surround recording might be a cool addition too. [The internal mic on the Canon HF-G10 seems to pick-up a lot of wind noise]

One current limitation is my editing setup is 2.1 only, so enriching the audio from my surround mic with secondary tracks might be difficult.

--Rob

Go buy a new speaker setup, you now have justification! Or you can just get some speakers to match the existing front speakers. Then you'll need to balance the rears to the fronts. I've used a Radio Shack SPL meter, mounted to where my head would be during editing.

If you are stationary indoors and the mic is mounted to the camera you probably won't ever have need for a fuzzy windscreen. There have been times, however, when my AT-822 stereo mic (mounted high on a mic stand) would be clobbered by ventilation air currents--it doesn't take much of an airflow to peg the bass. I carry a foam cover for such situations. If you walk around while recording, you'll want the fuzzy cover.

All my surround projects used two stereo tracks, one for front, one for rear. Putting Vegas into 5.1 mode enables the little square graphic indicator in the track header. For the front track, just slide the bug to the top center, for the rear track, slide its bug to the bottom center. Then listen to each channel, making sure that they map properly.

riredale,

M-Audio discontinued the LX4 5.1 expander kit to the Studiophile LX4 2.1 (my current system), so I'd need to look for three similar studio monitor speakers.

What 5.1 sound card would you recommend?

With the audio recorded from the Canon HF-G10 using the SM-V1 surround mic the surround pans appear to default as you would expect (Front stereo track is fully panned to front center, Rear stereo track is fully panned to rear center, Center mono track is fully panned to front center) .

Cheers!

1) There is a surprising amount of air movement in a club or theatre.
This is not a problem with a lot of mics (Dynamic mics for instance) but the TetraMic is highly sensative to air movement, as is the other mics I have receint experience with, the DPA 4060 and 4017.
So you may well need some sort of wind protection indoors. It helps also to have a bunch of foam around the capsule if the mic stand gets knocked over...

2) Yes I have Vegas set up for 5.1
I do indeed then have a bunch of other Fx tracks as well, mostly from the stuff Sony gives away with Sound Forge. Plus narration of course.
So typically there will be a bunch of 4.0 motorcycle Fx, plus mono narration, plus mono/stereo gunshots or explosions etc.
Paradoxically one thing I have had trouble recording is wind (heh!). My best effort so far was in the middle of a desolate part of south-western Colorado/South-eastern Utah. I was having a spot of lunch well off the road when a really nice wind storm sprang up. But there is a couple of nice wind effects I use in the Sony Fx series.
Don't know what it is with me and recording wind. There's either other noises (traffic/rain/thunder) or it's stopped by the time I get my gear setup.

3) Ahh yes, the wedges. Well my only experience with them *while I am close micing* was at a small free outdoor concert near where I live. It took me some time and frustration (once I got home) before I figured out why I had vocal pops/plosives when my mic was a foot or so away from the performer and encased in a Rycote blimp. I was picking up the FOH from the wedges. "My" recording technique was just fine. Except of course it wasn't :)
What did I do? I decoded to stereo - that meant my "virtual" mics were pointing at the performer and away from the wedges. Got rid of pretty much all the horrible FOH stuff.

Cheers,

"What 5.1 sound card would you recommend?"

You'll want a card with ASIO abilities. Sound mapper doesn't really cut it.

I tend to use a high end consumer card (Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD PCIe Sound Card) because it has Dolby encoding to an SPDIF output which I channel into a real home theater system (as opposed to a computer audio system). The theater receiver (Onkyo) has the built in Audyssey set up system which uses a mic to automatically set up, balance, and EQ all channels for proper 5.1 sound.

"- two stereo tracks (Front channels, Rear channels)

It doesn't really have to come out that way if you don't wish. In OPTIONS you'll find a switch;
"IMPORT STEREO TRACKS AS MONO"
If this is checked then all channels will import each to their own track. Some find this a bit cumbersome, I however prefer it this way.