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Subject:Which SF product is right for me?
Posted by: viajero
Date:11/29/2001 3:06:54 PM
Hi all... I'm hoping someone know knows a lot about all of these products can help me choose one that is right for me. Here's some factors: 1) I have no musical training, instrumental or otherwise, but I play guitar. 2) I have a little microphone on my computer to record myself playing. 3) I want to record multitrack music (rhythm guitar, lead guitar, and vocals mostly) and place it on a CD just for the fun of it (i.e. it doesn't need to seem professionally produced). 4) Ideally, I'd like to be able to make minor changes to what I recorded in case it sounds crappy initially. Currently, I'm using the demo version of Acid Music 3.0, and I was able to record 4 tracks and put them together into a song. I guess it worked out OK, but a large part of the process was done manually by me (mainly, I had to record over and over to get certain things to sound right). Am I probably good enough off with ACID Music 3.0, or should I consider Pro or Forge or Vegas? Thanks for any advice! |
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Subject:RE: Which SF product is right for me?
Reply by: nlamartina
Date:11/29/2001 3:30:52 PM
Viajero, Well, if you're looking to multi-track, Vegas would probably be best for you. While Acid can certainly edit and play back multiple tracks, it's only capable of recording two tracks at a time. This may be enough for you. Then again, it may not. Vegas is capable of doing multiple tracks at a time. In general, it more of a producer's tool, whereas Acid is a creator's tool. Sound Forge probably wouldn't suit your needs. Like Acid, it only records two tracks at once (stereo left and stereo right). Aside from that, Sound Forge has no multi-track capabilities. It's an editor's tool. With that in mind, let me break down the programs for you: ACID MUSIC 3.0 - Unlimited tracks of playback - Two tracks of recording at a time - Track and Bus-oriented FX - Loop-based audio creation (one audio sample per track) - Some audio editing capabilities VEGAS AUDIO LE 2.0 - Eight tracks of playback - Eight tracks of simultaneous recording (if you card supports it) - Track, bus, and event-oriented FX - Sample-based audio creation (any combination of samples per track) - Robust audio editing capabilities SOUND FORGE XP STUDIO 5.0 - Two tracks of playback - Two tracks of recording - FX as edits only - Not suitable for composition - All about audio editing. The above-mentioned programs are all in the same price range. Again, for guitar stuff with vocals, I'd recommend Vegas Audio LE. Acid's more for rhythmic stuff. Matching up samples can be a bit sticky, even with BeatMapper. With guitar stuff, it's a lot easier to just punch in with a production-oriented piece of software like Vegas. Overall though, it comes down to your choice. Download the demos and play with them. Don't be afraid to experiment with different setups and functions. Find what works best with you. Also, try and think about ways you could expand your hobby in the future, and get the package that helps suits that need. In the end, I'm just a talking head. Some will agree with me, and others will disagree, but what matters is you. Take your time and have fun, because that's what it's really all about. Best wishes, Nick LaMartina |
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Subject:RE: Which SF product is right for me?
Reply by: viajero
Date:11/29/2001 3:50:15 PM
Nick, thank you for your help! I have a couple of followup questions for you: 1) Being a novice, I guess I don't understand the concept of recording multiple tracks at once, or how I would use that. Would that be like recording your voice all at once on three tracks and then editing each one separately to produce a more dynamic sound? 2) When you say that Vegas has more robust audio editing capabilities than Acid, can you elaborate on that? Most of the editing I would want to do is the "easy" stuff like I found I could do with in the FX area of Acid Music. Does Vegas build upon this, and if so, what other features are added (especially those helpful to someone with no music theory)? Thanks again! |
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Subject:RE: Which SF product is right for me?
Reply by: viajero
Date:11/29/2001 3:54:01 PM
Also, do any of the products come with a "drum beat generator" or something of the sorts? I don't have my own drum set, and it would be nice to digitally create my own drum track w/o having to use loops. |
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Subject:RE: Which SF product is right for me?
Reply by: MyST
Date:11/29/2001 3:58:12 PM
If you only play guitar and sing, you're going to need to accompany these. That's where Acid comes in. You can have your guitar on one track, vocals on another, and add bass loops, keyboards loops,etc on other tracks. I agree Vegas is better, IF you play multiple instuments and you want to put it all together. You're definitely going to need something more than vocals and guitar to have a good final product (unless of course you're going for the Unplugged thing). :) Later. |
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Subject:RE: Which SF product is right for me?
Reply by: MyST
Date:11/29/2001 4:00:51 PM
Read my above post re which product. As far as drum generators, you can get some free on some sites. I don't remember which off hand, but there're out there. Later. |
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Subject:RE: Which SF product is right for me?
Reply by: Iacobus
Date:11/29/2001 5:56:44 PM
To add to what everyone said, you'd probably want to pick up Sound Forge as well, if only for its excellent audio editing capabilities. Iacobus |
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Subject:RE: Which SF product is right for me?
Reply by: nlamartina
Date:11/29/2001 6:00:36 PM
Viajero, 1) Multi-track recording allows a performer to record multiple things at once. Keep in mind you'd need a soundcard capable of recording multiple with channels. This is most useful for live bands with lots of instruments or vocal performances that may require a spot mike or two. In a setup such as this, you'd have lines running from a bass, a guitar, a few vocal mikes, a kick mike, etc. Then the program would record all the data simultaneously. Needless to say, it would be a rather large burden to only be able to go two tracks a time. However, like I said before, two tracks may be enough for your setup (voice on channel 1, guitar on channel 2). On the other hand, if you wanted to record both your voice and guitar in stereo (for a more open sound as a matter of preference, so 4 channels total), then you'd need Vegas instead of Acid. But again, for amateur projects, two should suffice. 2) The audio editing capabilities of Vegas are a bit more robust than Acid in that it allows a larger amount of manipulation to occur. Event-driven editing (meaning each segment of audio within a track can be assigned different FX, instead of having one global setting for a track) can yield results a lot easier and faster. A desired effect can be accomplished in one track versus several in Acid. But for the novice user, Acid would be enough for you, I believe. Additionally, Vegas’s setup may be overkill and needlessly complicate the task Also, MyST makes an excellent point... unless you play other instruments, you'll need an accompaniment. That's Acid's arena. It's way easier to compose a bass line or drum pattern in Acid than Vegas since it's designed as a composition tool. There are literally 1000's of loops out there designed specifically for that purpose. With that in mind, again, Acid looks like you best choice. There you go. Keep us updated on your thoughts. We're all glad to help. Best wishes, Nick LaMartina |
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Subject:RE: Which SF product is right for me?
Reply by: Styrerra
Date:11/30/2001 12:10:21 AM
Have you read into Cubase or Logic? You don't seem to be looping and that's what Acid is mainly good for. WIth Cubase and logic you enter the world of midi (composing drums, sound effects, and going back as many time as you want to time the drums right and such ) The latest 5.1 has a free vocoder and several softsynths. MIDI + Audio combined = Cubase and Logic Audio = SF products |
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Subject:Thank You
Reply by: viajero
Date:11/30/2001 10:44:30 AM
Thank you everyone for your help. Based on what I heard, I think I will stick with Acid Music for the time being while it still does everything I need, and I will explore other programs as needed. Since I am currently using the demo, I will probably order the boxed version so I can get that CD with samples and loops too. That should (hopefully) solve my lack of drums problem. Thanks again! |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:11/30/2001 12:33:23 PM
Viajero--Based on everything you've said, the most cost-effective and beneficial products for you are probably over in the Cakewalk aisle. Acid is not designed as a multitrack recorder for audio which is what you need. You need a drum generator, a true multitrack recorder with great effects, and strong guitar support. Two products come to mind, and they're cheap. One is "Guitar Tracks Pro"--it has a great drum/beat generator, a built-in tuner, a built-in amp simulator, a very simple interface just like a cassette recorder, 32 tracks of 24-bit audio, full printout lead sheet support with guitar tablature, and full Acid file support. It was specifically designed for guitarists like you who don't want to be computer geeks. I was going to mention another product, but I just realized I don't have to--this is perfect for you. It's maybe, $75 or so street. |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: viajero
Date:11/30/2001 2:13:30 PM
Maruuk, The thing is, I don't need multitrack recording. I just record all of my tracks separately and then play around with them (I literally put a microphone in front of my amp, play the rhythm part, save it, play the lead part, save it, etc., and then it sounds like I'm in a full band). Also, I'm not a guitarist who doesn't want to be a computer geek...I'm a computer geek who wants to be a guitarist! |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: SHTUNOT
Date:11/30/2001 3:17:01 PM
LOL!!!!!!! |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: Rockitglider
Date:11/30/2001 3:31:27 PM
I LoVE IT .......... That was great LOL IN REAL BIG FONTS Great comeback! Marruuk I think the post started to ask "Which Sonic Foundry Product" NOT Cakewalk |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: MyST
Date:11/30/2001 3:40:06 PM
Maruuk, you may now remove your foot from your mouth! |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:11/30/2001 5:15:38 PM
SF lapdog morons--go ahead, try to sell him stuff he doesn't need and will interefere with his ability to make music. True SF marketing scam artists to the core. Via--You are incorrect. Multitrack is the correct term to describe a product which records MULTIPLE TRACKS of overdubbed audio like you are doing, not loops, and plays them back. The local Sonic Foundry touters are pushing a product in Acid that does not support multitrack audio. SF has come on here and stated in no uncertain terms that Acid IS NOT INTENDED to record multiple lengthy tracks of audio to be played back simultaneously. Acid is not intended for the uses you are putting it to. Sync problems, glitches, dropout are all extensively documented in these pages by hapless musicians who tried to torture Acid into being a recording studio capable of primarily recording audio in separate tracks and playing it back in multiple tracks. You can record a few tracks like you're doing and push the envelope, but why would you want to be in an environment WITHOUT the drum amchine/beat generator you need and a true, SUPPORTED multitrack (yes, for overdubbing guitars) environment? BTW, if you're rich, the $400+ bucks per product mentioned above for other multitrack apps won't bother you. But Guitar Tracks Pro is cheap, and specifically designed for your EXACT NEEDS as a guitarist attempting to record himself with a drum backing. I guess these other guys don't want you to know about that. Too bad. |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: MyST
Date:11/30/2001 7:13:04 PM
Once again, you assume everyone lives here in a bubble. You must think you're the only one intelligent enough to check out other sites. People are asking about SF products, they want answers about SF products. Don't underestimate other peoples' intelligence. As mentioned before, we've all looked at other products, we know they're out there. You know, for someone who has brought up the webmaster before, you should really review the posts before flying off the handle like that. Nobody put you down. Remarks were made that would be made amongst friends. You assumed wrong about his guitar and computer "geekiness", and you were the target of one of the best comebacks I've seen. Yep, you'd be surprised, the webmaster might put the bar of soap in YOUR mouth!! It might also get rid of the rubber sole taste that remains. Later. |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:11/30/2001 8:22:38 PM
Wrong on all points, Myst. Frequently a poster will come in here and ask about a particular brand of interface and you guys will flood him with a wide variety of alternate possibilities, various companies, and their relative values. But that's ok. If I do it in the app world, I get attacked by an angry mob. Yeah, that's reasonable. What a crock! Via's response that you thought was so brilliant was factually incorrect--he thought multitrack referred only to software audio recorders which could record more than 2 stereo tracks at once. Not to mention he thought Acid could be used as a non-loop multitrack audio app. These are important distinctions which clearly show he's a novice and needed advice in these areas, none of which you gave him--but of course you were willing to go out of your way to attack a helpful poster, that's worthy of your time and efforts. Get a clue, the attack dog act is wearing thin. If the SF webmaster wants to censor my useful and helpful comments because they don't sell the in-house product, fine, let it come. Maybe YOU'RE the webmaster. Do your worst. But try to do better than this, it's really a poor effort and sadly transparent. |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: MyST
Date:12/1/2001 7:56:28 AM
To be perfectly clear on this... I am in no way associated with Sonic Foundry, apart from being a registered user of their products. But if thinking that makes you feel better, so be it. As you have probably seen, I've actually agreed with you on some of your other posts. When people ask a question about a Sonic Foundry product, they deserve an answer about a Sonic Foundry product. As I have said before (and seen from your posts) you're a knowledgeable guy. But PLEASE, stop acting like you're the only one who knows about other products. People will prefer different products for different reasons. To use cars as an example. If we all looked at the specs only, we'd all be driving Toyota Camrys. Lots of room, reliable. But, people will buy Taurus and Malibus because they prefer those, for many different factors. Some people might not like the way the Camry shifts, or handles, etc. The same goes for audio software. Maybe someone doesn't like the cakewalk products because of their look, or maybe they were mistreated by their customer service, who knows? If this was a Ford Taurus forum and you kept pitching the Camry, you'de get the same reaction. I'm done rebutting your posts on this. In fact, when someone comes to this site saying "I don't know about audio software, could you guide me to different products available that might suit my needs", knock yourself out! |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: Maruuk
Date:12/1/2001 1:21:35 PM
Dude, no one has EVER been criticized on this site for offering helpful alternatives to whatever hardware or software a poster is asking about--until now that is. What is your agenda here? A guy states he needs a built-in drum machine-style device. Acid doesn't have one apart from loops, nor do the other SF products mentioned above. In fact, the gentleman does not even reference the use of loops at all. He states he wants to record a number of audio tracks one-at-a-time. Then play them back/mix on a multitrack basis. A direct quote from SF states, "Acid is not, or has ever been represented as a multitrack audio application. It is based on loops and while short audio segements are supported, it is not meant to be used as a multitrack audio system as we have other products that address those needs directly." Fine, I go along with that. With the possible caveat that Vegas is damnably expensive compared to other, more full-featured competitors. But the guitarist needs a drum machine integrated into the app. SF does not make such an animal. Leading him in that direction does not serve his needs, and is not helpful to him. Neither is encouraging him to use Acid like a multitrack audio recorder. Bad advice. End of story. |
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Subject:RE: Thank You
Reply by: Rockitglider
Date:12/1/2001 8:58:33 PM
Hello, The poster said that they needed advice on which "Sonic Foundry" product to buy, If they had wanted Cakewalk maybe they would have went to the Cakewalk Forum News Group and asked for advice there. I own Guitar tracks Pro, and it's a good program for multitrack recording and is targeted for Guitar Players, but the looping capability is not very good, and the drum loop selections are not anything near what Sonic Foiundry Acid Loops offers. Honestly what I do is make all my drum tracks in Acid, then import them into Vegas and Guitar tracks Pro, then record along with the drums like that. It's too difficult to put the same drum track together in GTP, and in some cases it's imposible to recreate drum tracks as good as Acid's, in GTP. I don't think it's right to constantly refer people to a competitor when your in their forum. I like both companies for different things, but I would'nt try to tell people in Sonic Foundrys Forum to go somewhere else, especialy when they're asking about Sonic Foundry Products by name. The Drag and Drop Drummer you get with GTP is not that great. You can make drum tracks with it, But Acid can make much better drum tracks and in half the time it takes in GTP. Rockit |