|
Subject:Hash on voice recording
Posted by: bob_catt
Date:11/11/2001 12:09:42 PM
I'm trying to locate a problem: a low-level hissing sound on voices recorded on and played back back from a Sony Datman. I only hear it on the actual taped voice portions on the Sound Forge 4.5 track, but not on the 5 seconds of blank space I program in between interview clips. I also don't hear the hiss on the input from the Datman (dubbed in digitally). Any suggestions on the source of the hiss? Possibly the sound card? (It's not a good one, identified only as "on board", pre-installed as part of a computer package deal.) I'd appreciate your comments. |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: Rednroll
Date:11/11/2001 12:49:42 PM
I think to find your problem, we need to know your entire signal chain of your recording, starting from the type of microphone you're using, and if you're going through any processors before it get's recorded to the DAT, or what mic pre-amp are you using? (ie the one on the DAT or something else?). What input on the DAT recorder is the Mic signal being fed into. Then when you transfer from the DAT, are you coming out the digital out into a digital in of your sound card, or are you going analog out to analog in? Also, when you playback from sound forge, what's the setup for you to hear the sound? There's many steps the Voice goes through starting from the source until it reaches Sound Forge, it could be any of these, so don't be vague, we must know the entire signal path to see where the problem might lye. Regards, Brian Franz |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: bob_catt
Date:11/11/2001 4:00:42 PM
Hi Brian - Thanks very much for replying. I hate to clutter up the Forum with this lengthy reply. As I'm sure you're aware, technically I'm a babe-in-the-woods with the Sound Forge other than knowing how to do basic dubbing, editing etc. on it. Re your request for more info, I'm taping onto a Sony TCD-D7 Datman with a Shure Beta 58A dynamic mic - no processors, no mic pre-amp. My output on the Walkman (a stereo mini-jack) is set at "Line Out" which according to the manual is the analog mode. The connecting cord plugs into another stereo mini-jack at the back of my computer. But what happens in the on-board sound card before the signal reaches the Sound Forge is something I can't describe, because when I bought the computer package there was no description of it. Presumably it's bottom-of-the-line but if you need more info I can try to get it from the company that sold me the computer package. When I play back from the Sound Forge, it goes straight from the sound Forge into the computer speakers. I really appreciate your interest in my problem and patience with my lack of technical expertise. B. Catt. |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: Rednroll
Date:11/11/2001 9:51:08 PM
Thanks, all that info is handy and takes a lot of the guess work out. It definitely sounds like it is in the transfer from the Dat player to your PC. I would suspect a low quality A/D converter in your sound card at first, but you mention that the hiss sound is not present when there is silence between the VO parts. I'm thinking now maybe it is a problem with your windows mixer settings. First go into Sound Forge Options>Preferences>Wave. Set the playback and record to your soundcards Driver, it defaults to "Microsoft Sound Mapper". Next open up the sound card mixer (usually the speaker icon on the bottom right of your screen). Goto Options> Properties>Recording, put a check next to all the input devices so they are now showing after you hit OK. Now you want to MUTE all inputs except for the LINE IN of your soundcard. I'm suspecting that your mic input is enabled and is causing some cross talk from your LINE IN input causing the hiss sound from the MIC input to be recorded along with the LINE IN. If you mute all other inputs besides the LINE IN you are guaranteed that no other input, like a noisy mic preamp from your soundcard is not also being recorded. |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: bob_catt
Date:11/12/2001 2:23:54 PM
I tried your suggestions and the low-level noise persists at about -55 db on the Sound Forge meter. I'm beginning to think that your suspicion of a "low quality A/D converter in (my) sound card" is valid. When I said the hiss isn't present when I insert silence between the VO parts, I'm referring to the Sound Forge function you can adjust to any time length that adds a perfectly blank SPACE in the track. I don't think it would have a hiss on it, would it? What do you think of me doing either or both of the following things? (1) replacing the present on-board sound card with a better one. (2)buying an optional adapter for the Sony Datman that allows me to send a digital signal rather than an analog signal into the computer input. Thanks again. B. Catt |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: VU-1
Date:11/12/2001 6:43:41 PM
Bob- Re: noise during the inserted silence? No, unless you have a problem in the playback system. Since you said you don't hear it during those parts, your problem is elsewhere. According to your info, your hiss is coming from your recorded material and is either induced in the source (mic-to-DAT) or going into the computer (DAT-soundcard-computer). To isolate the problem: Record a tune from a good commercial CD (including gap between songs) - thru the same inputs you used before - onto a DAT and record/play that material thru your soundcard. If the hiss goes away, your problem is in your source (mic, cable, room, bad signal ground, etc.). If the hiss doesn't go away, connect the CD player directly to the sound card input and record/play again. If the hiss still doesn't go away, you need a new soundcard. If the hiss does go away, your DATman is to blame. My guess is its your sound card. Any 1/8" mini-jack connection is suspect for noise introduction. Furthermore, any soundcard that uses 1/8" mini-jacks as its primary input connection, was meant only for recreational use and NOT professional use and will invariably introduce some undesireable noise. Good luck. Jeff Lowes On-Track Recording |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: bob_catt
Date:11/13/2001 7:15:35 AM
Thanks for your comment. I've tried what you suggest and I still hear hiss, but not as loudly. Actually the hiss has been intermittent. Over all, I'm beginning to think it's the sound card, especially after you say that any soundcard that uses 1/8" mini-jacks as its primary input is for recreational use only. The work I'm doing is for broadcast, so I think I'm looking at a better sound card. Will it accept a digital as well as analog input? B. Catt |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: VU-1
Date:11/13/2001 12:54:20 PM
Depends on the card. There are SO many choices for sound cards out there. I am currently using a Zefiro Acoustics ZA2 (not available anymore - I was hoping for a 24/96 version from them) which has AES/EBU, SPDIF and Optical digital ins & outs and also analog outs. Very nice card - as old ones go. Here is a site that has a wealth of knowledge on the subject: www.PCAV.TECH.com/soundcards/compare/index.HTM You will need to figure out how you will using your card and what types of gear you want to connect to it in order to determine which card is right for your app. Good Luck Jeff Lowes On-Track Recording |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: bob_catt
Date:11/13/2001 3:37:47 PM
Thanks Jeff. All your info is useful, as is Brian's B. Catt. |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: Rednroll
Date:11/13/2001 9:08:02 PM
It definitely sounds like the problem is your current onboard sound card. Those are usually pretty noisy for recording, -55dB level of noise sounds about right. I highly doubt that your onboard sound has a digital input, so buying the adapter for your camera will do you no good. The best thing you could do is buy a sound card with a digital input. I personally like Echo's cards. The echo MIA would probably be ideal for your needs. This card is about $150. Visit WWW.echoaudio.com. I also hear the RME hammerfall cards are very good audio cards also. Buy a card with a digital input and then the adapter for your camera with a digital output. Going digital to digital means no sound will be added in the transfer process. |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: VU-1
Date:11/14/2001 10:24:07 AM
Bob- Before you go and drop any money on a sound card, you need to find out what kind of interface card slots you have available on your computer's motherboard. Older m/bs had PCI and/or ISA slots. My ZA2 card is an ISA card. My current DAW is going on 2 yrs. old now and has both PCI & ISA slots. However, when I upgrade it next time, I will have to buy a new sound card also because new m/bs don't have ISA slots on them. Most, if not all, sound cards today are PCI cards. The PCI slots on your m/b are short and white(?) in color. Look for your video card. If your computer is fairly new, it will most likely be a PCI card. The ISA slot is longer and brown(?) in color. Older dial-up modems are ISA cards. Look in your owner's manual if you have one or open up your computer and look at the m/b. Just make sure that you have an available (PCI) slot for the new sound card. It could be that if you take out the stock one, it will make room for the new one. Good luck. J.L. |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: bob_catt
Date:11/14/2001 1:06:11 PM
Again, thanks for the further input from both of you. I dropped in on a major music store here in Toronto that caters to acoustic and electronic composers and musicians and has some sound card specialists on staff. The man I talked to also has been trained by the company that makes Sound Forge, which is encouraging. He was very helpful and told me to try some tests (moving the computer farther away from the monitor etc., seeing if the hum is on the tutor files that come with Sound Forge etc.) before deciding what to do. It's still there, which makes me, and the man at the store think it IS the soundcard. But he's not pushing me for a sale, in fact quite the opposite. He showed me one soundcard that has digital and analog inputs. It costs about $285 Canadian including all taxes, and the man at the store will install it as a favour for nothing. It's the Midiman Audiophile 2496. I don't want to wear out my welcome but once more your comments would be welcomed. B. Catt |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: VU-1
Date:11/14/2001 3:59:13 PM
Did you visit the web site that I mentioned in an earlier response? It has quite a few cards listed with features, test results & comments on each. JL BTW- a 24/96 card can be used, but won't reach its potential unless you use a 24/96 capable editor. SF5.0 (full version) will do it - SF4.5 & lower will not. P.S. The fact that you said you did NOT hear the hiss during the sections of inserted silence (by you) eliminates the possibility of the noise being induced by the proximity of your monitor. Besides, it would probably be more of a buzz than a hiss. |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: bob_catt
Date:11/14/2001 5:06:15 PM
Hello again - I tried to reach www.PCAV.TECH.com/soundcards/compare/index.htm but got a message from MSN Search that I couldn't reach that website. And I'm afraid you lose me when you say "a 24/96 card can be used, but won't reach its potential unless you use a 24/96 capable editor. SF5.0 (full version) will do it - SF4.5 & lower will not". Can you tell me please if that means this is not a good product for me to buy? Sorry but I'm out of my depth here, and I wouldn't blame you a bit if you gave up on me! thanks. B. Catt |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: Rednroll
Date:11/14/2001 7:26:13 PM
24/96 refers to the bit depth and sample rate of the audio. 24bit, 96Khz sampling frequency. This is the audio quality of a DVD. A CD is 16bit/44.1Khz sampling frequency. Sound Forge v4.5 won't let you use the 24/96Khz capability of that sound card, because v4.5 doesn't support that high of resolution. Sound Forge v5.0 does. You can still use that card with v4.5 because it supports other resolutions like 16/44.1, but you won't be able to use it to it's full potential. Also an important point is if you're going into it digital from your Sony DV cam, you'll want to read your manual and see what format your audio get's recorded at on the tape. It's probably 16/48Khz, 16/44.1Khz 20/44.1Khz or 24/48khz, which means you won't be doing yourself any good recording in Sound Forge at 24/96. You can't increase the resolution that's already been recorded. Really for a newbie, this is not real important information and may seem confusing. Don't worry you'll understand it later. Having 24/96 ability is not necessary to get excellent sounding quality. 16/44.1 gives excellent results also, so don't buy into any sales tactics, because like I said you're camera is not recording at 24/96. |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: VU-1
Date:11/14/2001 11:48:54 PM
Brian- Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are confusing Bob with another user. Bob said he was trying to record into a Sony DATman and then into his computer. Bob- DAT recorders typically will record digital audio at 3 different sampling rates: 48kHz, 44.1kHz and 33.2(?)kHz (or long play mode - don't even worry about that one) all at 16-bit. (There are exceptions to this - but in your case, I doubt it.) Sound Forge 4.5 supports sampling rates of up to 96kHz but only bit depths up to 16-bit. If your new sound card will record at 24-bit/96kHz, you won't be able to use that setting because SF4.5 won't allow it (SF5.0 will). You will have to record at 16-bit/96kHz (at best - which is pretty darn good since CDs are "only" 16-bit/44.1kHz) or just set your card & SF to record at 16/44.1. When you open up a new project in SF, you can pick your recording settings. Just set your DAT & SF to record at 44.1kHz and forget about the rest. In fact, if you connect your DAT to your sound card thru a DIGITAL connection, you can only record thru your sound card and into SF at whatever sampling rate the material on the DAT was recorded at. Comprende? JL OTR P.S. If you get a 24/96 card and decide to record in 16/96 mode, you will have to resample the file back down to 44.1k or 48k before you can output the file DIGITALLY to DAT (or to 44.1k to output DIGITALLY to CD-R). See SF Help on how to do this (its easy). |
|
Subject:RE: Hash on voice recording
Reply by: bob_catt
Date:11/15/2001 8:20:33 AM
Hi Jeff and Brian - Actually sampling rates are something I do understand a little about from my work at CBC Radio. I tape and produce documentaries and other radio programs for them, and in the case of field interviews I like to pre-edit the voice "clips" at home on the Sound Forge, then transfer them on DAT into a CBC Soundscape on which I assemble, time, balance, equalize and mix the shows. This saves tieing up the CBC equipment and lets me work at home where I keep all my notes, research tapes and scripting materials. CBC Radio studio Dats use the 44.1 kHz sampling rate, so that's what I give them on my(portable) Soundscape hard drives. Unfortunately with my present home setup the Datman will only record the clips at 48 kHz (even though they're set at 44.1 in the Sound Forge) and I have to convert those clips back to 44.1 at the CBC. But that's not a problem. And because I never use DVDs, obtaining a a 96 kHz sampling rate on my soundcard isn't necessary. Thanks again. B. Catt |