Subject:Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Posted by: 519tbarr

Date:7/4/2012 12:52:45 PM

So i was out doing my daily browsing and codenamewindows says that Windows 8 Pro will be available as an internet download, or iso, or you can purchase a DVD backup of the operating system. Wait for it....
$39.99 for Windows 8 Pro if you have a legit copy of Windows XP through 7. (check for system compatibility - that could open a can of worms!)
That's a crazy good price for the new operating system. No official release date although it is expected before the year is out.
So where will that leave us with our beloved Acid Pro? We haven't seen an update since early 2010 and in its current form it most likely will not be Windows 8 compatible...
Food for thought!
Is this where a new Sony platform/DAW comes out before Windows 8? Is it why they possibly are launching a MAC version of whatever this new software is?
A lot o this is guessing work, but so far no one from Sony on these forums has denied finallyonthemac is Sony.

Makes one wonder!

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:7/4/2012 2:11:20 PM

No real point to Windows 8 if you look close at the specs. Can't find a single reason to upset a perfectly solid Windows 7 x64 SP1 install. Give me stability and compatibility any day - I cannot begin to tell you how these two requirements severely outweigh new and shiny.

Also - considering Win 8 is being universally panned by folks far and wide....does not bode well for it's use in pro audio.

This massive price break on WIn 8 has one sole purpose and that's to try and saturate the market with cheap copies before folks find out exactly what they bought. Now - maybe my son will dig it - but it's not worth any down time to try and shoehorn that mess into my production environment.

If you want to do real work - Windows 7 will be the standard for a long time to come. Bloody Win 8 doesn't even have a Start menu...that alone will knee cap thousands as they try to figure out what the hell to do.

Finally - the fact that you cannot set the Desktop as any sort of default view. You are in Metro whether you like it or not every single day.

VP

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: aboukirev

Date:7/5/2012 8:34:28 AM

Cakewalk people did a series of tests for Windows 8 vs. Windows 7 for pro audio. Apparently, in metro mode Windows 8 cannot be used for pro audio but in desktop mode it outshines Windows 7 in both CPU load and memory usage. The conclusion so far is that Windows 8 is a big improvement. Here's the article.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:7/5/2012 12:16:31 PM

I strongly suspect that "how to get your Windows 8 into desktop mode" will the the most popular and most used "Windows Tips & Tricks" item ever in the history of Windows.

I also predict that those few who leave their computer in Metro mode will often hear the refrain, "Your computer looks strange. What is that? Oh wait, i seem to recall that my computer looked broken like that too, once, for about 10 seconds, the very first time i ever turned it on. Then someone fixed it for me and it's been fine ever since."

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:7/5/2012 12:29:28 PM

Cakewalk people did a series of tests for Windows 8 vs. Windows 7 for pro audio. Apparently, in metro mode Windows 8 cannot be used for pro audio but in desktop mode it outshines Windows 7 in both CPU load and memory usage. The conclusion so far is that Windows 8 is a big improvement. Here's the article.

Regardless of what some graphs and stats say - if a user is not comfortable with the UI and is lost all the time - performance means nothing.

And for what we do - which is record and edit audio - even the most basic of Windows 7 laptops can handle pretty anything that any audio software vendor can throw out there today. Jeez - my current studio PC is a custom job from 2008 and I still cannot get it to even whimper running Windows 7 x64 - even with huge projects in Studio One or Nuendo or whatever.

We are long since past the point of actually needing to able to "feel" a performance boost - especially from the OS. As it has been for decades - only throwing better hardware (SSD, memory and CPU) results in any tangible, noticeable boost.

Even XP still works perfectly for the DAW as long as you do not need RAM past 3.5GB.

Can't see myself wanting to change from a known good very powerful, very smooth - working system to an unknown based on that report.

VP

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:7/5/2012 12:37:03 PM

I also predict that those few who leave their computer in Metro mode will often hear the refrain, "Your computer looks strange. What is that? Oh wait, i seem to recall that my computer looked broken like that too, once, for about 10 seconds, the very first time i ever turned it on. Then someone fixed it for me and it's been fine ever since."

It will be more than a few since "booting or startup to the Desktop" is not possible in Windows 8. You get Metro every time...every boot. Plus even going to Control Panel and many other things we take for granted will result in one flipping back and forth between Metro and desktop relentlessly.

I can't see anyone putting up with this for very long.

VP

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:7/5/2012 1:14:59 PM

Bets on how long it will be before the first 3rd party patches come out to "fix" the mess? I'm thinking probably some 3 weeks *before* the public beta is available.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: 519tbarr

Date:7/5/2012 1:34:17 PM

Come on, let's be honest.
The typical framework for a PC and Mac is changing. Even in Mac Lion with the new magic mouse we have gesture movements - taken from Palm originally. Think of the first time most of us saw an original iPhone and what are thoughts were, some said yes to the idea, some said no, and it became the framework for the modern smartphone. The idea of your typical PC software and Mac software is changing. The typical desktop style computer and maybe even the software is going to change. I can go into Best Buy and see that. There's now only a half rack of desktop PC's. There's a full row of all in one units like an iMac.
Windows 8, may or may not succeed but the reality is XP to 7 is long term a dead way of looking at the UI of computer software and operating systems.
Just my take.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:7/5/2012 3:07:36 PM

Bets on how long it will be before the first 3rd party patches come out to "fix" the mess? I'm thinking probably some 3 weeks *before* the public beta is available.

All very highly unlikely as contacts of mine who are working on the very latest builds have already told me that MS has completely ripped out all legacy code to enable any third party hacks or tweaks.

Case in point - on the most recent Release Preview or whatever its was called - hacks like these that worked in back in March - no longer work. Even MS themselves have held back nothing when asked about it. They are very clear that on Win 8 - Metro is a requirement - not an option.

So third parties can try as they might but if there is nothing to hack - there is no point.

VP

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:7/5/2012 3:15:42 PM

Windows 8, may or may not succeed but the reality is XP to 7 is long term a dead way of looking at the UI of computer software and operating systems.Just my take.

Like it or not - the long term view has nothing to do with cool and shiny - it's has to do with selling product. And the biggest sales in the Microsoft world come from the business world - who need an OS that they can get work done on - not something that looks like some toddler's Fisher Price block game.

If you truly believe that the software world runs on folks shopping at Best Buy - you need to open your mind a bit more. The big dollars come from offices like mine - with huge enterprise agreements etc. My parent org has already told MS that we will have nothing to do with Win 8 and it's not even out yet.

Our Windows 7 licenses on the other hand...no problem spending bug bucks there....

The world that you see might look like it's changing - but that won't be enough to prop up the huge failure that is coming with Windows 8.

VP

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:7/5/2012 3:37:57 PM

Yep, i know someone who works in contract negotiation at the 3rd largest Windows installed base in the world. When Vista came out they were informed that they had to migrate. They sent back a note saying that they would continue to purchase XP and extend XP licenses and support instead, or they'd shop elsewhere for their OS needs.

Microsoft complied in a heartbeat. 400,000+ users is quite a lever.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:7/5/2012 6:40:45 PM

The new UI seems geared towards trivial and tablet applicatiions.

Anybody looking forward to smeary monitors ;-?

geoff

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:7/5/2012 10:13:36 PM

Also, with mouse-based applications you can click on the exact pixel you want. With touch-screen applications you tend to usually more or less get something pretty sorta close to the 75x75 pixel area that your finger smudges on. Imagine trying to adjust keyframes with that level of inaccuracy. Worse yet, imagine the Vegas UI recreated so that all the controls are big enough to touch accurately. You'd need a screen the size of the whole wall and arms about 6 feet long to reach all of it. Either that, or have 200 separate windows with just a few functions each that you have to keep swapping back and forth all the time while barely being able to see the timeline.

Sorry 519tbarr, but there's a LOT of applications that simply don't lend themselves to the sloppiness of touch.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: 519tbarr

Date:7/6/2012 5:37:17 AM

Yeah I completely understand what your saying with regards to mouse based applications and the accuracy of pin pointing where you need to be. I personally couldn't imagine editing without a mouse. The first couple of times I tried a magic mouse at work (using a mac) with the gesture thing on top of the mouse and no scroll, that took a bit of getting used to. Point noted!
Funny on the smeary monitors Geoff!

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: feign

Date:7/6/2012 7:30:27 AM

It seems the entire tech universe is increasingly geared toward stoopid. It appears that manufacturers assume that everyone's primary use of electronic devices is to turn off their brains and play games. Why does anyone need quad-core for a phone? Not for any communication functions, but to play games. I love my Sony e-reader, primarily because all I can do with it is READ BOOKS. Meanwhile other e-reader makers are obsessed with adding gaming capability to their devices, as if no one has the attention span to read a book chapter without lapsing into Angry Birds.

That's my impression of WIndows 8. Riffing on what Geoff said, Microsoft has determined that the primary use of a computer for most people is to WASTE TIME. Windows 8 makes that supremely easy (as I've seen it on my son's laptop), shouting it in your face each time you boot up: Facebook! Tweet! Tweet! Games! Games! Games!

What's next? Electronic keyboards with Twitter and RPG games built in? (Maybe they already have that)

Maybe the future screams for a return to the past, when people needing to do serious audio, video or graphics production needed a dedicated system to do so.

I'll certainly skip Windows 8. My Acid Pro 7 and all my Adobe apps run perfectly fine on my self-built circa 2007 computer running Windows XP. And in all those years, using Acid Pro from versions 4 through 7, Acid has crashed a total of only 4 or 5 times. I don't see what's in it for me to buy the juvenile-looking Windows 8.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:7/6/2012 12:44:11 PM

I use an Android tablet for many purposes, everything from gaming to business. I think of it as an extension of my desktop. (There are apps that even let one access your desktop from one's tablet remotely.) I can connect a mouse if I want to for pixel-precise editing.

However, in no way would I want my desktop to act like a tablet, especially where touch is concerned and especially where ACID Pro is concerned.

Obviously, mouse support is still in Windows 8 so pixel-precise editing is still there. I'm just a little perplexed at this new desktop they have going on.

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:7/7/2012 6:50:11 AM

The feeling i get is that Microsoft has latched on to the mantra of "cross platform uniform experience" to the exclusion of all else. What they're completely ignoring is that There are concessions a UI must make to be usable on a 3" screen that are not only unnecessary on a 20" screen but also grossly backward and inappropriate.

I don't want Metro on my desktop precisely because it makes the user experience horrible. I don't want a 3" touch screen UI on my phone either, but use it out of necessity because a desktop UI isn't easily usable on such a tiny screen.

There's a very good reason why the controls for a car and for a motorcycle are different. Putting handlebars in a car or a steering wheel on a motorcycle would be disastrous. Let each device have whatever controls work best rather than trying to make them all the same.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:7/8/2012 2:46:40 PM

To be fair, the "familiar Windows Desktop" (as Microsoft calls it in their release preview guide) is still there; it's basically a panel in the new Metro UI that you tap (or click, depending on the hardware). Not exactly buried, either.

Still, what if one wanted this to be the "go-to"? There must be an option to have this the first thing that comes up when one boots?

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:7/8/2012 5:43:03 PM

Apparently not, from the Microsoft comments i've seen. I'm still certain though that there will be new 3rd party tweaks to achieve it that will come out soon enough, even though Microsoft has made sure the already-existing ones no longer works.

I use a utility called the "7 taskbar tweaker" on my laptop that makes Win7's taskbar behave in the much more sensible XP manner. There will always be useful tools like that.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:7/9/2012 5:07:19 AM

So I guess the concise , intuitive, non-fluffy, XP Start menu will be a bit of a stretch then....

geoff

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:7/9/2012 6:04:08 AM

Heck, i don't even like the XP start menu. All my computers are still using the "Windows Classic" version. So much neater and cleaner.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:7/9/2012 4:28:03 PM

I think that's what I meant !

geoff

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: CWatkins

Date:7/16/2012 1:53:03 PM

Metro loads fast. If nothing else, someone could add something that switches to the desktop as soon as the Metro menu comes up.

I've had Win 8 on my Dell Duo since the RP was released. I actually like it. The Duo was a neat concept, but "meh" until I installed 8. Now it runs better and the touchscreen actually works the way one would expect a touchscreen to work. Which is kind of the point of the Duo, because goodness knows, typing on the thing is an obnoxious experience.

But I'm sure you can guess that I don't use the Duo for A/V work.

The future-thinking code is way under the hood, but it's there. 8 does seem to be much more efficient overall. But getting noticeable results on a convertible with an Atom and 2GB RAM is one thing. As already mentioned, I don't think that efficiency will be nearly as noticeable on my desktop, currently running Win 7 64. I'd manage just fine with 8 on the desktop, now that I'm used to navigating it on the Duo, but it would be rather pointless, not to mention a monster pain in the rear getting everything set up again.

Subject:SpectraLayers and Win 8

Reply by: 519tbarr

Date:7/16/2012 3:09:48 PM

CWatkins.
Thanks for your write up of your experiences on Windows 8. I am looking forward to seeing what it brings to the table.

By the way sony people, anyone notice the brand new program SpectraLayers Pro which is MAC and PC compatible?
I think this is good news for whatever Sony has up their sleeves with the next generation DAW.

Good work Sony!
Give credit where Credit is due!

Subject:RE: SpectraLayers and Win 8

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:7/16/2012 5:18:14 PM

I noticed quickly.

IIRC (and someone from Sony Creative can correct me if I'm wrong), what-was-then Sonic Foundry had an exclusivity deal with Microsoft to produce their software for the Windows platform alone. Guess those days are now over.

I have mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, Mac users can now experience some of the Sony Creative goodness. On the other hand, are us PC users being thrown by the wayside to focus on the Mac?

Subject:RE: SpectraLayers and Win 8

Reply by: CWatkins

Date:7/16/2012 6:18:46 PM

I definitely noticed SpectraLayers Pro. Then I tried to stop looking because I can't afford to give Sony any more money right now. I wanted it before I even knew what it did - the screenshots are pretty! I love visual representation of sound.

My roommate has a Mac. He and I both create and edit music on our computers, but we live in two separate universes when it comes to software. I constantly find myself saying, "Hey, have you checked out... Oh, nevermind. You can't." With the recent buzz, plus SpectraLayers being for both platforms, I'm starting to have hope that someday we will be speaking the same language when we talk about the software we use.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: ddm

Date:8/14/2012 2:28:54 PM

I've been running Windows 8 Pro RTM on my laptop and one older desktop for about a week now, and the interesting thing (to me and possibly others on a Pro Audio forum) is that all my audio hardware works better on both machines. I have a Line 6 UX1 that seems to work flawlessly on my laptop, with lower latency than I could get on W7 x64 without the occasional glitches and pops. And this is with the Line 6 drivers that are out now. I also have an old M-Audio Fast track, the original inexpensive one. It, too, works better than it ever has on my two W8 x64 installs on the same hardware that I've been using them both on in W7. Not that big a deal, I guess, but I've been very pleased with the performance across the board. I've been using Line 6 software and Guitar Rig 5 and Waves Guitar in Reaper and Vegas and Sonar X1. I haven't tried it in Acid Pro yet, I haven't been using Acid much lately, I'll try it out today but I expect it should work as well. As far as the Metro side of things, I guess that's personal taste, I heard nothing but bad things about it before I ever used it, but now I love it, it's lightning fast to switch back and forth to the traditional desktop, I don't even think about it anymore. There are some very good free apps so far that are just plain better than anything else I've seen, and I think that bodes well for what kind of software is to come. Simple stuff, not complex apps like Photoshop or Vegas but still stuff that is just a pleasure to use. Theres a sample app that just takes the standard Wikipedia web site and turns it into a well laid out magazine, and it uses the same Wikipedia data but just doesn't look gawdawful unreadable like wiki usually does. My 2 cents.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: 519tbarr

Date:8/14/2012 2:36:40 PM

I appreciate your user feedback on your experiences with Windows 8.
There is a known compatibility issue with AP7 and windows 7 sp1.
Look forward to hearing how you make out running acid pro on windows 8.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: ddm

Date:8/14/2012 3:13:45 PM

Anything specific you want me to try? I just created a project, added a drum loop, a soft synth and some midi drums and overdubbed a guitar with my Line 6 ux1 interface (asio driver) with a Guitar Rig 5 effect plugged in on the output. All works fine. Easy project so far. What isn't supposed to work in W7 sp1?

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: 519tbarr

Date:8/14/2012 3:27:12 PM

On my system it would freeze and stutter. Scroll function was delayed at best. Once i uninstalled Sp1 acid came back to life.
Also it showed up in my windows error reports as a known compatibility issue. No solution was available for it.
Just wanting to know if its stable. Adding busses too slowed acid pro down.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: aboukirev

Date:8/14/2012 5:52:27 PM

It's not clear from you original post whether you tried to right-click on ACID executable, select "Properties", click on "Compatibility" tab, check "Run this program in compatibility mode for" check-box, try one of the choices in the drop-down box, and hit "Apply"? Experiment. One of those might just work while you are running Windows 7 SP1.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: 519tbarr

Date:8/15/2012 8:58:35 AM

I think at one point i did try that option and it did nothing on my tower at the time.
Thanks for the advice.

Subject:RE: Windows 8 and the Future of Acid Pro.

Reply by: april.exe

Date:10/8/2012 12:24:10 PM

I see that the Release Preview can be left on the PC and a key purchased when W8 goes on sale this month (as opposed to having to do a re-install like with Developer Prev) so Ive gone with the in place upgrade. Everything has gone pretty well and Id recommend it maybe with the caution that you have a solid backup ready in case you don't like it, maybe the speed boost isnt as drastic as youd like, etc.

Overall Acid Pro 7 is loading faster than with W7.Thats all I ask.

The change in the Acid GUI when selecting use xp theme support is a nice change of pace I guess. Hopefully there will be a theme mod to give us a choice for classic/2000. If you deselect use xp theme support you just get a slightly cut back version of the new UI. It may even be preferable to some. Very simple and Linux-ish looking when set to the windows basic theme.
** One note about themes. If your a fan of glass I had read that support had been removed from the 8 release preview. I upgraded from 7 with glass enabled and it was on when 8 finished installing...?.

Back to Acid...another plus that I had noticed improvement with in 7 is faster loading of softsynths/effects. Scanning/re-scanning still takes time but the actual dragging and dropping of synths and effects when working on a project is at least as stable as in W7.