Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Posted by: deusx

Date:4/18/2012 1:23:04 AM

Could be good but there are quite a few potential problems with this too. Vegas kills it when it comes to real, full on editing meaning AUDIO and VIDEO since this thing ( I'm guessing ) can't handle audio well at all.

Looks like they wanted to copy Fusion and since I already have it and considering others who have it, why should we bother especially if it's not better than fusion ( it's not by the way ) at what these things are supposed to do.

Mac only right now. What is that about? This is a way out for the FCP crowd because OSX is such a crappy platform with no choices whatsoever, but I don't see other people abandoning their current tools for this.

Price is still $4000 or so with subscription ( $900 a year ).

And, don't be surprised if it crashes 15 times a day. It's happened before.

Vegas + Fusion combo still beat this thing. Vegas clobbers it senseless it in the audio department, probably ease of basic editing/cutting as well. Fusion finishes it off and buries it behind the barn.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: GlennChan

Date:4/18/2012 1:44:02 AM

I'm not really sure if Smoke competes with Vegas.

Vegas is awesome for 1-man army type work... where you have to do both video and audio quickly.

Smoke is good for situations where you have lots of time to do graphics and/or VFX work. I feel like Autodesk is simply getting on the bandwagon of charging a lot less for software and trying to make it up on volume (e.g. Final Cut, Blackmagic, Red, etc.). I'm not sure if the market is there. But we'll see what happens...

The programs is design to work on Hollywood movies.
Not really... Autodesk's other programs are more suitable for Hollywood movies (e.g. Flame, Inferno, etc.).

Smoke is appropriate for broadcast work (especially online editing) and high-end video (e.g. high-end corporate).

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: farss

Date:4/18/2012 2:14:27 AM

I don't see what game it changes. It's considerably more expensive than Vegas or FCP X, there's a LOT of clutter to the GUI and I watched the first half and didn't see anything that made my jaw drop, Fusion has been doing the same thing for years so that market is already spoken for.
I certainly agree with their word cloud analysis, time seems more and more to be the factor and that's driven as much by budget as anything. No matter how easy it is to open a CC FX it still takes time to do and more and more no one seems to care.

Bob.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/18/2012 3:19:09 AM

It's a game changer for Mac people. They now have a couple of choices, but I'm afraid that will just confuse them. Papa Steve is not around to tell them what to do, heads may explode.

For the usual crowd doesn't change much. Most movies will still be edited on some AVID system, compositing done on Shake, Nuke Fusion, AE and those other Autodesk products with more fire and smoke and ridiculous prices to match all the fireworks.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: paul_offline

Date:4/18/2012 5:28:15 AM

Looks very interesting but its not 'cheap' as some are saying. $4000 is not cheap to me.. PP5.5, FCP and Vegas are all way cheaper. And its Mac only.
With those negatives out the way, i'd say it looks great.

Paul.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/18/2012 8:24:09 AM

>>>>Hey Glenn... I love Vegas. But ...The Smoke announcement is scary!!! I think at onetime Smoke cost about 25k or 30k? Maybe more!<<<<

Face Robot used to cost over $100 000 about 4-5 years ago, now I get it for free in Softimage so prices mean very little. I'm sure smoke did not cost as much as it did because it was so much better than the rest. Like I've mentioned before in Vegas support threads most of that pricing goes towards support and just because they can get away with it. Software itself is no better than AE.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/18/2012 12:19:07 PM

>>>>Advance tracking, 3 D animation, rotoscoping, chroma keyer ,color correction and SFX. I will take that. Instead going back and forth in Vegas and After Effects.
Stay in one UI. In addition, that UI is beautiful put together. Until you use a node base workflow you don't know what you are missing.<<<<

I'd rather go back and forth between Vegas and Fusion because Fusion's effects are better than Smoke's, and I'm not missing nodes, this Smoke version is an obvious ripoff of Fusion just with cheesier looking icons.

I can't say for sure, but reading about it it just sounds like nonsense PR and lies. Fusion has had 3D for years and they claim to be the first compositor with that. I'm pretty sure that 3D and particle effects in Fusion are quite a ways ahead of anything in this version of smoke.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: robwood

Date:4/18/2012 2:39:32 PM

my pov is a bit negative but...

i dont see Smoke as a threat or game-changer to anyone using Vegas, or Premiere... Avid might not be too happy tho.

and i'd remind people that PC users now have access to DaVinci Resolve Lite, which is better (and free) for CC work than Smoke, which is Mac only; not a good thing given Apple's lack-of-interest in all things Pro the last few years.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: farss

Date:4/18/2012 4:57:34 PM

'Vegas needed show demostration clips like Smoke."

Have you seen what SCS were running on their stand at NAB?

Eyeon: Battlestar Galatica.
Avid: Latest Bond movie with script sync.
Adobe: Their own funded movie shot on Red.
SCS: Some horrid skateboard video shot on a palmcorder.

Admittedly that was a couple of years ago but seriously, mentioning Vegas and Smoke in the one post is plain absurd.

"Man ... I not coming down on SCS. I am painting a picture hoping that they can see the future."

Until they get a product that works reliably SCS has no future.

"They are in a dog fight right now, so is Sony Electronic for their survival."

With who?
SCS has never been in the ring, not even in the building, they left the building a decade ago.

You seem to think SCS has something to do with Sony, it doesn't. The other Sony divisions simply don't know it exists. Sony knows they have zero cred as a software house and they're far from unique in that regard. You know of any decent software from Panasonic, Canon or JVC? You know of any decent software written in Japan? You know of any decent software written anywhere in Asia? Putting a Japanese company's brand onto any software is a good way to kill it.

Yes, Sony have failed at crystal ball gazing but so has every other Japanese company in the same market. It'd also be foolish to fail to realise the importance of the Asian markets themselves. China and India are a huge market that dwarfs the rest of the world and they are on the rise while the west slips into irrelevance. Both China and Japan have local players building product that targets their own population. They have their own social networks and all the "new media" things covered. Companies such as Apple and Google are not part of the landscape in Asia.

Bob.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/18/2012 8:50:10 PM

<<<Why are you mad? ...just look at the video clips>>>

I'm not mad. I'm just saying that all this is the usual PR nonsense, product hype/announcements and outright lies. They do say they are the first compositor/editor with 3D space. Fusion has had 3D since around 2007 if not even earlier.

I'm sure it's going to be a pretty good app, but it's not really all that new or a game changer. Sell it for $99 on Windows, maybe then you'll change the game, this way it will be stuck in a marketplace which already has better apps that do the same thing. They'll be lucky if they get 3 guys to switch from Premiere/AE to this.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/19/2012 9:31:22 AM

Good Lord. I'm happy for anyone that finds Vegas to be their solution but some of you amuse me to no end.

"It does audio" better than ______ so it destroys the competition!

Sony Vegas for all it's plusses and minuses, is not in the same game as the big boys.



JJM

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Jay Gladwell

Date:4/19/2012 9:48:37 AM

"Sony Vegas... is not in the same game as the big boys."

Brace yer self, Jimbo. Them's fightin' words!

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/19/2012 10:13:54 AM

"Brace yer self, Jimbo. Them's fightin' words!"

Indeed Jay - the Patriot Missile batteries have been deployed !



JJM

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: TheHappyFriar

Date:4/19/2012 1:07:46 PM

Brace yer self, Jimbo. Them's fightin' words!

Since you brought it up.... ;)

Smoke is no where near the same price as Vegas, so they're not aimed at the same people. AE doesn't seem to be a standalone program any more, it must be bought in a bundle, and it's not an NLE, so no reason it should be compared to Vegas (except to say that Vegas can do some of what it does). FCP is Mac only, Vegas is Windows only. Unless someone wants to spend a couple thousand in new hardware & software switching systems and software then there's no point in talking about switching (and then you might as well by Smoke, right?).

That leaves Premiere, and it's not even mentioned in this thread except to say it's owned. The thread author says he doesn't really like it but Smoke will replace everything else he has (for the listing of software he says he's using, that makes sense to stay in one piece, at least he could sell his old Vegas license!) so, in essence, it's the no better then Vegas in the "I can replace it easily" department.

So far the "Big boys" aren't mentioned at all, except that it's $4k (or, if you want to get pick, ~$3.6k).

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/19/2012 2:28:52 PM

I think I agree with you; I consider PremierePro CS5/AE, FCP7 and MC6 the "Big Boys" and I think they were aimed at folks other than who SCS marketed Vegas to. This has obviously changed some with FCP X

As for Smoke 2013 it looks like a very disruptive product.


JJM

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/20/2012 8:32:55 AM

Smoke 2013 will not disrupt anything or change any games. It's just marketing bull$hit.

It will probably be a nice app, but we've already had better for quite some time, so unless you are a newbie with some extra cash about to make your first purchase there's no reason to give up your current apps and buy that.

You may want to add it to your toolset because some things may be faster to do in Smoke, but it's always been like that. One app does this better, another does that better, therefore same old story. No game change, just one more piece of software

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/20/2012 9:24:49 AM

Yeah, you're right. I don't know what I was thinking.




JJM

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/20/2012 1:01:20 PM

Of course you're correct Hyper but how are you supposed to argue the point with someone that thinks Sony Vegas Pro is superior to it??

Vegas "kills" Smoke 2013 in "full on editing".


Mother of God.



JJM

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Jay Gladwell

Date:4/20/2012 2:35:25 PM

I have been in this business for nearly 40 years, and in that time I have NEVER heard anyone say, after looking at a film or video, "Yep, that was edited with ___________."

Humm... Ever wondered if Walter Murch and Thelma Schoonmaker get into arguments as to which is the better editing software?

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: farss

Date:4/20/2012 4:25:16 PM

Just by chance yesterday I was helping a young guy load some kit into his car.
The car was packed with gells, not the usual stuff, instead subtle golds, rose, NDs and a variety of diffusion.
I asked the guy if he worked in theatre and he said no, he's learned an old trick and made it his "thing" as a DP. He said he drives the production nuts as he messes around changing gells on fills and backlights, he always keeps the key clean.
Looking at his latest effort, a seduction scene shot on an Epic, wow. Between the camera moves and his subtle use of color the clip was very steamy. All you see is smoke but you were left with no doubt an inferno was happening.

Trying to create his look in post would be impossible, maybe with a LOT of work you could fudge some of the subtle color shifts, the whole package, impossible. I think this young gent has a career ahead of himself.

Looking at that piece would anyone ask what editing software was used, would they ask who edited it, no. If they understood the art of movie making they would ask who the DP was.


Bob.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/20/2012 8:40:32 PM

>>>>You have to be proficient Color Corrector, 3 D logos Placement, Relighting, Motion Graphic, Rotoscoping, Audio Mixing, Tracking, Stabilizing and Keying etc.
<<<

All things I have been doing since last century. I guess you better buy Smoke as soon as it's out because you've got quite bit of catching up to do. And you forgot to add 3D modeling and animation + game development.

>>>>Vegas "kills" Smoke 2013 in "full on editing". Mother of God.<<<

You obviously have no clue as to what a DAW is and what Vegas can do in the audio department. Smoke is a compositor with basic editing tacked on, that's all. They wouldn't be telling us how greatly it compliments FCP X if it were really a good NLE by itself.


>>>>I am sorry Deusx ...you are WRONG! It's a Game Changer, just like DSLR and now 4K cameras that are coming in. If you can't see this, you will be left behind. <<<

I love these left behind comments. Like I can't just buy Smoke if necessary ( If I don't get it by October 31st Autodesk is not going to let me buy it : "Sorry Mr. deusx, you've been left behind" ). The thing is it will not be necessary. I've already been doing everything Smoke claims to do ( and far more in the audio department ).

I use mostly Pana. GH2 these days and I can tell you DSLRs changed no game. The only thing that changed is the equipment and that changes every few years anyway, Game is still the same, DSLR is just another tool which may or may not work depending on the shoot/situation. I don't see all those "normal" camcorders disappearing any time soon.

If you feel that Smoke is the solution for you, fine. I have nothing to add. I'm sure it's a very good app, but please let's stop with game changing nonsense. The game has always been: "Get it right when you shoot/record it and leave as little as possible for post work/editing" If you do that you will never need 90% of what any of these fancy programs offer.

The game changed somewhat a while back when decent software and hardware became affordable enough for the little guy. That was a long time ago. Everything coming out now is just more tools, but if you couldn't do what you wanted to do in 2005 with what was available then you won't be able to do it in 2012 either.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: ushere

Date:4/20/2012 11:33:20 PM

love this thread!

i'm still shooting hdv on an ancient z5, editing on vegas, and STILL getting paid to do so.

the only game changer for me will be when i don't have clients lining up at the door.

Subject:RE: FCP, Avid and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Steve Rhoden

Date:4/21/2012 12:38:30 AM

Autodesk Smoke is no Game changer my friend.
And its only available for Mac.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: [r]Evolution

Date:4/21/2012 9:08:04 AM

Although I like the thought of being able to do almost everything in one application... I do NOT like the Smoke workflow.

People who find it hard to switch between conventional NLEs (Vegas, Avid, FCP, Premiere) will find it terribly hard to grasp Smoke.

Also, it depends on what type of video you produce. Most people on the forums will not need all that Smoke has to offer. It's just not in the budget on lots of our productions to include all the bells and whistles.

CS6 will probably be my "Do All" suite.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: HyperMedia

Date:4/21/2012 9:00:00 PM

Again you miss the point. *** Deusx*** Workflow...time is money. Watching the video by the Autodesk editor....he really explains the concept of editing---we are not just editors anymore. You have to be proficient Color Corrector, 3 D logos Placement, Relighting, Motion Graphic, Rotoscoping, Audio Mixing, 3D Tracking, Stabilizing and Keying etc.
In one SYSTEM!!!

I was already moving to a MAC. Really don't like FCP, Avid or Premiere UI. I started out as Avid/Premiere editor and used Combustion/AE. My plan was to run Vegas on Bootcamp and fired up Combustion again. And, look into FCP X. But with this Smoke announcement and upgrade. That UI is what editing should look like.

If you can't see where this is going. You are BLIND! Producing a TV show you need to have all those proficient tools. I am visionary.... Because I see what the Smoke release will do. Here you GO! The Future! In future upgrades they will include Flame, Maya, Softimage and Studio 3 D Max features here and their. Each year something will be added. You mention you wasn't blown away. Each demos I saw was impressive high image.

>>>>Vegas "kills" Smoke 2013 in "full on editing". Mother of God.<<< What are you talking? I don't see top commercials produced by Vegas. Yeah, maybe wedding videos. Again you talking nonsense.

***All things I have been doing since last century***Yes in one system? Sure you have 3 D Tracking, Paint, 3D Rotoscoping, Advance Chroma Key,3 D motion cameras and one click match Color Correction etc. I know all about Vegas and probably more than you. That's why I state the facts. Vegas is good, but all those things that I have listed is what Vegas needs to improve on. In addition, some of those plugged in Vegas always have problems.

You must be a FanBoy. I don't think you have been reading the Vegas forum lately?
Have you? I know all about Vegas audio tools. But the pro's sure don't know. Let me say this. I have filmed over 400 top concerts. In addition, filmed over about 100 NY and LA Fashion Weeks. The so call creative person is using a Mac Book Pro. In addition, my associate runs a nightclub. Every traveling DJ that comes, always have a Mac Book Pro running Logic or Pro Tools.

I won't bash Vegas. I like Vegas. But I won't be blinded of what is going on around me.
Get your head out of sand and realize, that world is changing faster then your antiquated
workflow. Smoke UI is what a editing should be about.

Furthermore, DSLR have changed the Game. When you see top advertising company producing nationwide broadcast TV commercials and episodes. For example: Canon has announced that the season finale of House is the first network television prime time drama episode to have been shot entirely on a digital SLR camera. The crew used a Canon EOS 5D Mark II body and a selection of EF lenses for a completely digital workflow that allowed them to complete filming the entire episode in just 10 days. The season finale airs tonight, Monday, May 17, 2010 (8:00-9:01 PM ET/PT) on FOX. That's a game changer.

Rack It! My man you may think Smoke is not a changer. Is much most efficient workflow. The node editing is super fast once you start to understand the concept, as a matter of fact. You will become a better editor understanding the pipeline. I done with the subject.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: John_Cline

Date:4/21/2012 9:38:20 PM

"I am visionary"

This isn't the first time someone has made that claim here and it has rarely turned out to be true.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: farss

Date:4/21/2012 10:17:28 PM

I'll offer a simple bit of visionary advice.
The only constant is change itself.
I could probably find a reference to that as old as the earliest record human writings.

There are no "game changers" the game itself keeps changing. At the most the so called "game changers" simply act to facilitate the change, they're not the agents of change.
In our game the audience is diversifying, the budgets are shrinking and the median quality of the product is diminishing. It's pointless saying this is a good or bad thing. King Canute learned you cannot stop the tide.

Bob.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Steven Myers

Date:4/21/2012 10:27:22 PM

The season finale airs tonight, Monday, May 17, 2010 (8:00-9:01 PM ET/PT)

Can't wait.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: HyperMedia

Date:4/22/2012 1:04:35 AM

The season finale airs tonight,*** Monday, May 17, 2010 ***(8:00-9:01 PM ET/PT) on FOX. Yeah!!! That's changed the game.

That's the day. Since then I see more DSLR being used to film commercials.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: ushere

Date:4/22/2012 2:50:46 AM

you're an interesting character hypermedia (with a very apt moniker!).

back in 2009 you wrote

I may be changing to Final Cut Pro 7 soon if Sony can’t get this crash fix soon with Vegas Pro 9a. I’d been having problems since installing. It crashes 5 to 6 times a sessions. I want to utilize it’s new features been can’t without it freezing.

yet your still here, which i suppose shows the resilience of vegas, or your tenacity in waiting for things to get better. your profile still lacks system specs, nor do you post a link to your (if you have one) website. the former is just curiosity (you seem to know your pc''s so i thought i might get an insight (NOT incite) into what a serious user uses, and the latter is always useful when getting up on a soapbox, otherwise, as we say down here, it's like pizzing into the wind.

are you by any chance related to bill conduit?

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/22/2012 4:58:23 AM

>>>>The node editing is super fast once you start to understand the concept, as a matter of fact. You will become a better editor understanding the pipeline<<<<<

You don't sound like you understand what you're reading in my posts.

I've already mentioned that I have been using Fusion ( node based ) for a long time and it does everything that smoke does and it does most of it better.

Vegas is for audio and basic editing.

No need for smoke.


>>>>The crew used a Canon EOS 5D Mark II body and a selection of EF lenses for a completely digital workflow that allowed them to complete filming the entire episode in just 10 days<<<<<

You do realize that normally it takes them only 7 days per episode?

I could have shot an episode of House on Canon HV20 in a day and edited the whole thing in Vegas in another day. Who cares what they shot it on. They are just peddling more nonsense to attract attention and get people to watch or/and are being paid by Canon to say so. It's kind of difficult to discuss things with somebody who can't see through such obvious nonsense. CANON PAID THEM TO DO IT AND TALK ABOUT IT. It's a commercial, not a game changer of any kind.

And by the way these 4K game changer camera guys are full of $hit, Red cameras included ( no nicer way to say it ) Do some research and see how they arrive at 4K. These are not even close to real 4K . It's all marketing bull$hit.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: paul_offline

Date:4/22/2012 5:36:46 AM

This is funny. Currently in a battle of tweets with a guy attacking me because i said "Smoke2013, interesting software but not cheap"... and ended with a comment from him saying words to the effect '150k to 4k - i can agree its not cheap if you are not a professional editor'... lol. So there you have it, we are not professional editors, nor are Avid, FCP or Premiere users.. oh dear.
What on earth is going on here, seems to be a very touchy subject this. Its like mass brain washing!! it can only be 'professional' if its expensive. wtf.

Paul.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Steve Rhoden

Date:4/22/2012 7:04:04 AM

You need to take a chill pill HyperMedia, Despite Vegas's setbacks they are still strongly in the game. Which editor is gonna give up their NLE workflow to
invest entirely in Autodesk Smoke?

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: ushere

Date:4/22/2012 8:48:30 AM

just to add to the general gist of this (autodesk) thread - i had a good friend who invested in a discreet 'edit' system in 2002. the software alone was around $10k, and rec hardware was also pretty expensive (matrox digisuite boards, etc.,).

the following year discreet simply dropped major support for it when they went to edit 6 on win 2000

times change, now they're only asking $3.5k.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: MUTTLEY

Date:4/22/2012 12:14:39 PM

lol, seriously? Who in the world would call themselves a visionary? The only vision I got while reading this is of someone having 3 spikes and a coupla big pieces of wood in their backyard.

Sorry, I'm easily humored and this thread has been rich. I'm thinking HyperMedia should change his name to HyperBole ... just sayin =)

- Ray
Underground Planet

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Steve Rhoden

Date:4/22/2012 6:53:06 PM

Well good luck with Smoke....and with impressing your clients when
you open up smoke for them to see that is what you are using. You are
quite the Visionary my friend.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Tech Diver

Date:4/22/2012 7:25:24 PM

HyperMedia, are you posting here to try to convince us to buy Smoke? If so, you are not reading this audience correctly. Over the years I have read many posts in this forum to the effect of where to buy Vegas for $10 less, or company xyz is having a sale on plugins. Do you actually believe that people in this group who quibble at spending $150 for an upgrade have the funds to spend nearly $4000 on Smoke? Maybe Smoke is a "game changer", as you profess, for Hollywood film makers who frequent other forums; but not here. I find that when one regularly puts sensationalism in one's posts, credibility declines.

Peter

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/22/2012 8:20:00 PM

A guy who knows more than ( you and I combined ) x 10 about cameras says this about 4K

[link]http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-truth-about-2k-4k-the-future-of-pixels

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: ushere

Date:4/22/2012 8:57:06 PM

ok, whilst waiting for a render to finish i had a quick look at the video you linked to....

one cannot deny the power of the software, very impressive, but i don't see it being of any use / relevance to the vast majority of users hereabouts.

i cannot see how it could be used for events, doco's, in fact anything that requires minimum fx and minimum level of decent audio control. in fact, i didn't see ANY audio? and overall it looks extremely cumbersome to use on anything other than maybe a fx heavy 30' tvc, or specific scene within a larger program.

please explain your workflow with regard to audio mixing for the series you're working on?

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: MUTTLEY

Date:4/22/2012 10:00:49 PM

HyperMedia: "I not convincing any one to buy Smoke."

Only smart thing I've read you post in this thread thus far Sir =)

- Ray
Underground Planet

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: SuperG

Date:4/22/2012 11:10:25 PM

Deusx,

Thanks for that link, I learned something. The fact that film is scanned across the entire width was revealing. The argument about bayer sensors vs tricolor pixels too. (makes me wonder if Foveon will ever work out its kinks and try their hand at video..)

If there was a takeaway - it'd be that you shouldn't be seduced by hype - use your noggin and evaluate technology. Caveat Emptor to the intellectually lazy.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: John_Cline

Date:4/22/2012 11:43:33 PM

Deusx, thanks for the link to the John Galt article, I definitely learned some stuff. I also wholeheartedly agree with both him and James Cameron, HIGHER FRAME RATES!!! I've been shooting a lot of 1920x1080-60P and I like it.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: SuperG

Date:4/23/2012 2:48:57 AM

I watched a video produced from the old 70mm/30fps Todd-AO version of Oklahoma the other day. What a treat. 24fps may have somewhat of an ethereal quality to it, but 30fps is more realistic. To see it in an old Technicolor film from the fifties - the actors just come to life.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: farss

Date:4/23/2012 6:00:19 AM

"A guy who knows more than ( you and I combined ) x 10 about cameras says this about 4K"

That is now years old. Sony's F65 uses a 8K sensor, Red has moved to bigger sensors. Cinema screens are today enormous and yes, I think around 20 rows deep so it is easy to end up 6 rows from the screen and at that distance I really wished it was in 4K.

Bob.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: apit34356

Date:4/23/2012 7:50:52 AM

Nice article,

its always nice to see a discussion about camera sensors, single vs three+ sensors, etc.... the tech is really improving. The dynamic range is critical(in my view) and moving to 14+ bit in the future will be important-----with better lens :-) I like the micro lens per pixel group approach on some sensors, less scatter light(in theory). :-)

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/23/2012 8:49:12 AM

"I could have shot an episode of House on Canon HV20 in a day and edited the whole thing in Vegas in another day. Who cares what they shot it on. They are just peddling more nonsense to attract attention and get people to watch or/and are being paid by Canon to say so. It's kind of difficult to discuss things with somebody who can't see through such obvious nonsense. CANON PAID THEM TO DO IT AND TALK ABOUT IT. It's a commercial, not a game changer of any kind."

What kind of nonsense is this? And what evidence do you have to support this?

Gale Tattersal has spoken on the record for the reasons for using 5D Mark II's on HOUSE. This story is well-known.

Less bluster - more facts dude.


JJM

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/23/2012 9:08:35 AM

In this thread members have accused HYPER of posting here to "convince people to buy Smoke", telling him to "take a chill pill" , and questioned his credentials (no website listed) when he has dropped some of the biggest names in the world!

What's most amusing to me though are the assertions here that Sony Vegas users are not going to abandon it in favor of Smoke 2013. Although HYPER himself is suggesting exactly this, who really believes that he's not the exception?

To the Sony Vegas user who says he's not inclined to switch to Smoke 2013 I would suggest that yours is an order that Autodesk was not banking on.


JJM

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/23/2012 11:43:06 AM

>>>Red has moved to bigger sensors.<<<

Still barely 1/2 of real 4K if you really want to do the math.

About House MD? That one episode is the only one they ever mention being shot with that Canon and people never create such hype over what camera was used to film anything. It was a Canon commercial Do I really have to explain this?

>>>>To the Sony Vegas user who says he's not inclined to switch to Smoke 2013 I would suggest that yours is an order that Autodesk was not banking on.<<<

Vegas is not Smoke's competition. Vegas is a DAW and a NLE, Smoke is a compositor ( now with Nick Junior editing tacked on ) and its competitors are Fusion and Nuke, both better than Smoke, so I don't really see how Smoke is relevant at all here. For somebody who wants to use a Mac and has no other options maybe, but on Windows there are plenty of better options already.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/23/2012 12:27:08 PM

{{{"About House MD? That one episode is the only one they ever mention being shot with that Canon and people never create such hype over what camera was used to film anything. It was a Canon commercial Do I really have to explain this?"}}}

You know not of what you speak. The story of the use of Canon 5D 's in the House episode is two years old and well-documented.

With regard to Smoke, the House episode, etc. you've made one declarative statement after another - most are merely opinion and some outright false. You are of course entitled to those opinions but, as they say, not your own facts.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/tattersal_talks/


JJM

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: farss

Date:4/23/2012 5:29:20 PM

"Still barely 1/2 of real 4K if you really want to do the math."

OK, I'll do the maths on this:

9k Mysterium Monstro sensor size: 645 format, 56mm x 42mm. Resolution: 9k, 9,334 x 7,000, 65MP. Bit depth: 16 bit.

John Galt says a 4K scan of a 35mm neg yields a total pixel count of 36M, I'd think 65M actual photosites would be more than adequate. I agree with what John says in that I'd rate that camera as 4K, not 9K as Red are trying to do. Of course Red never actually built that camera, probably for exactly the reason I mentioned, the lack of lenses capable of projecting an image onto a sensor of that size.

My objection to that talk by John Galt is that he too has an agenda and obfuscates as much as anybody to push Panavision. The Bayer sensor mimics the way the human eye works and yes indeed a so called "4K" bayer sensor will not give an image that's at all suitable for keying smoke or fog at 4K. That's a fairly rare requirement though and given that no 2K or 4K delivery system uses 2K or 4K RGB for many, many productions, a moot point.

Where the talk is good is it does explain the science quite well and armed with that a production should be able to evaluate which camera is enough for their needs. He does hint at things to come and today we're getting closer to them. The very nature of "cinema" is changing. Projecting 4K onto a large screen at 48 or 60fps and viewing it so that it fills the field of view of the audience gives a very immersive experience that hard to pull yourself out of, even if you want to. This is totally different to the what is now "arthouse" cinema experience of a few decades ago.

Bob.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/23/2012 8:49:15 PM

>>>The story of the use of Canon 5D 's in the House episode is two years old and well-documented.<<<

And right after that episode, the following season they went back to shooting on film. Stop posting Canon commercials from June 2010. It's all about a single episode shot on Mark II because that was the only one shot with it and we know why.

<<<Of course Red never actually built that camera, probably for exactly the reason I mentioned, the lack of lenses capable of projecting an image onto a sensor of that size.>>>

Then it doesn't count, does it. I think their current sensor has less pixels than a GH2. I'm not saying it's a bad camera or that GH2 is better ( not that crazy ), but you can get as good , even better ( depends on the camera ) image quality with a camera that's "only" 2K. They are full of $hit and use 4K as a marketing ploy, nothing else really.

Anyway, my point is that 4K currently makes no difference and it probably won't for years, especially since it's not even real.

You go backwards. From how your work will be viewed back to what you need to make it look good . People seem to get too excited about big numbers that they'll never need, even if the numbers were real, which they are not. Nobody here ( and most out there ) needs this fake 4K. How large are the screens at Sundance again?

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/23/2012 9:54:40 PM

Right pal - I'll stop "posting Canon commercials..." when you provide us all with the evidence of your juvenile claim that Canon paid the producers of House to use their camera !

Our duex reminds you of every kid you knew in junior high who could never admit he or she was wrong - just ran around in circles with her babble.


JJM

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: MUTTLEY

Date:4/23/2012 10:23:45 PM

I'm not a numbers guy and when it comes to cameras I'm pretty agnostic, I'll go with whatever imagery I like best that I can afford. That said, I haven't been too excited about 4k in whatever shape, form, or fashion you care to label it. I never really warmed up to the RED for a good handful of reasons besides the price. This year I went to NAB thinking my Sony PMW-F3k was going to hold its own and that I wouldnt be tempted to upgrade anytime soon ... and then I went into Canon's viewing room, I was floored with the footage from the C500, in particular one shot that I couldnt seem to pull my jaw off the floor while watching was an aerial night shot of a turnpike/highway. Simply stunning! I cant even explain just how pristine the shot was, borderline surreal, almost felt 3D. I was so blown away by it two days later I had to go back just to watch it again, really, a shot of a street that I had to go back and see for a second time. To me, just about says it all.

I'm only grateful that it's not out yet since I'm not sitting on anywhere near enough to get it but will be anxiously awaiting more info and what the final street price will be. Again, it has nothing to do with the label 4K, whatever it is that can pull off a shot like that I want. I believe all the number crunching is what Spot refers to as "measurebation", the proof is always in the footage for me, not what label a company may bandy about.

- Ray
Underground Planet

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/24/2012 12:01:56 AM

>>>Our duex reminds you of every kid you knew in junior high who could never admit he or she was wrong - just ran around in circles with her babble<<<

At least I'm mentally at that age where I can put 2 and 2 together which you obviously can't.
What was I wrong about? They shot a single episode with 5dMark II ( or not even that, just parts of it ) , there were press releases all over the place ( hmm... wonder why ). Then they go back to shooting on film.

The burden of proof is not on me, it's on you. Prove that I was wrong and that they continued to shoot all of the episodes exclusively with Canon 5D Mark II. Who cares about one crappy episode. If it was such a game changer as you claimed they'd be shooting all of the episodes with it.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: ushere

Date:4/24/2012 12:37:04 AM

anyone actually read the article posted?

would have thought the answer was quite plain.....

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: farss

Date:4/24/2012 12:47:37 AM

"anyone actually read the article posted?"

I did, before said episode went to air, yawn, amazing, ground breaking, game changing, techtonic, quantum leap, paradigm shifting. A production chose the best camera to do a certain job.
How would they have coped if that camera wasn't available?
Blimps, fly away set construction etc. Who would have thought you could hang a wall off some pulleys, make faux concrete out of styrofoam or cork.

What has changed, zip. Behind the cameras people who can think outside the square to solve problems so a story can be realised will always be welcome, if they're lucky they might even get paid :)

Bob.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: ushere

Date:4/24/2012 2:00:32 AM

exactly bob, tool for a job, no more, no less....

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/24/2012 7:16:03 AM

Indeed, a tool for a job. In an episode that was based on a collapsed building the DP found utility in the 5D Mark II. Able to shoot in confined spaces. Used almost out of necessity. Of course, I linked the article to point that out. You guys understood this. Deux, not so much.

Deux makes much of the fact that the show hasn't used the camera since. Somebody tell him there have been no additional episodes involving collapsed buildings! Somebody also tell him I'm still waiting for him to support the claim that Canon paid off Fox!

As they say, you can't make this stuff up.


JJM

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/24/2012 8:42:47 AM

yeah, tool for a job, that's exactly what I said way back in the upper third of this thread.

Both smoke and DSLRs are no game changers, just additional tools. That was exactly my point all along. The original poster insisted both of these were game changers and you seem to have supported that view, that's all.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: [r]Evolution

Date:4/25/2012 2:23:20 PM

OP Deleted?

I guess he saw the thread about Lightworks and agrees that it IS the Game Changer.?

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Steve Rhoden

Date:4/25/2012 7:31:50 PM

I am telling you also to take a chill pill JimboWHO.
Seems you join in on this post ready to fight everyone who are simply
speaking their minds on the Smoke matter.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: JimboWHO

Date:4/26/2012 11:37:57 AM

You've got yourself confused with a moderator Steve-O.

You've also got me confused with someone who objects to people speaking their minds about Smoke. You'll not find any evidence of this above because it doesn't exist.

JJM

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Terje

Date:4/29/2012 9:13:07 AM

@deusx: They shot a single episode with 5dMark II ( or not even that, just parts of it )

Gale Tattersal: "We are using 5D’s on House on a regular basis now, and it has become an essential part of our toolkit"

Hmmm... they are obviously not doing that anymore (since there is no more House) but stil...

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: deusx

Date:4/29/2012 9:59:28 AM

>>>>"We are using 5D’s on House on a regular basis now, and it has become an essential part of our toolkit"<<<<

I know. They use it to take photos of the cast and crew for their facebook and twitter accounts.

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: i am erikd

Date:4/30/2012 6:14:40 AM

Well, for what it's worth. I am going to be giving Smoke 2013 a serious look. I've signed up for the trial download and plan to see what I have to do to make it crash.

Vegas is an awesome timeline editor but too often I'm dealing with various issues like the video replacement bug. (three times in one day yesterday!) Also, Vegas really starts to slow down on large projects and that's all I pretty much do these days.

I swore I would never give Autodesk any of my money after the way they discontinued Edit* and Combustion but this looks too good not to take a look at. Wish they would port it to a PC though.

Erik

Subject:RE: Avid, FCP and Vegas the Game Changer is HERE!

Reply by: Terje

Date:5/14/2012 3:04:33 PM

>> I know. They use it to take photos of the cast and crew for their facebook and twitter accounts.

That's fairly childish comment.