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Subject:A couple of problems...
Posted by: sk
Date:10/26/2001 12:29:14 PM
I recently purchased SF 5.0d. I was familiar with SF 4.5 from having used it on a friend's computer, and it seemed to work very well. I am really only using the program to help clean up and normalize .wav files. I used 3 options and got lousy results with all 3. I contacted Sonic Foundry and they did agree to refund my purchase price for 5.0., which is fine, but the problems persist, and they didn't seem to be too concerned about that at all. Below is what I tried to do and the results I got: 1. I wanted to remove tape hiss from an analog/digital converted song. I used the parametric EQ's reset "Hiss Removal (cut frequencies above 6kHz by 40 dB)". It didn't remove any hiss at all, and in the process totally messed up the sound level(s) of the song. Fortunately I used 'save as' before it was too late. I ended having to use the hiss removal from Nero 5.0's wave editor, which worked perfectly, and instantly, I might add. (I did read rednroll's comment about how long it takes to cut silence from the beginning of a file in SF, and also about how odd it is that undo/redo's can't be kept after a save, yet another problem with SF.) 2. I wanted to remove some bass. I went into Direct x, Graphic EQ, and used the preset "Cut Low Frequency Below 125 by 60". I watched the waveform after the effect took place. Something clearly was wrong; spikes appeared where they hadn't been before, in areas far removed from 125 hz. The overall sound level had gone UP!, to -22.2dB RMS from -22.7dB RMS; and peak dB went up to -7.4dB from -9.9db! So much for the big advantages of the Direct X plug-ins. I eventually just used the plain old graphic EQ and got the results I wanted. 3. I wanted to brighten up a song so I attempted to use the 'Smooth/Enhance' option. I previewed it and noticed that there was no discernible change beyond +1. I could hear dulling changes down to -5, but no brightening changes above +1. Sure enough, +1 provided a slight increase in brightness, which is more or less what I'd wanted. It's just that I wanted +2, and the program was unable to provide that. Just to see what would happen, I tried +5. It dropped the sound level a full dB!, with no discernible additional brightness whatsoever. Granted, I'm a hobbyist with all of this, and it's not my profession, but it seems to me that things are not quite right with Sound Forge 5.0. What makes it even more frustrating is that after contacting the company's tech support I got bogus responses that didn't even address the problems I'd sent to them. For example, in my response to the problems I'd experienced with "Enhance", the guy said: "Enhance is not meant to make the sound louder or boost the bass. In fact, it cuts the bass a bit so that the overall amplitude of the sound doesn't go over peaks when applying it to an already "hot" sound." Well, DUH...I KNOW that much, at least...that's not what the problem was and I never said that I wanted to use Enhance to boost the bass. I then contacted customer support and requested/got a refund. It seems like such a waste for a program that costs as much as SF 5.0 does to be so 'buggy', and have such an unresponsive company behind it to boot. It sounds like there are other programs out there (i.e. Wavelab) that are a better choice. Any and all comments/suggestions are welcome. Thanks in advance. SK |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: beetlefan
Date:10/26/2001 3:00:45 PM
Uh, a lot of what you wrote does not make any sense. The Smooth/Enchance feature is not designed to work like an EQ, like you expected it to. You should have used a graphic EQ. SF5.0 provides three types of EQ. Choose the right tool for the job! If you cut the bass you WILL effectively increase the frequencies above the "turnover" frequency. This is supposed to happen. The fact that you could not cut the hiss was because your file's hiss probably fell BELOW the cutoff frequency of 6kHz. In any case, you should not rely on presets. Presets are only starting points for tweaking your settings and rarely work perfectly for your particular situation. It seems that you should learn something about phycics and audio electronics before you criticize a fine program like Sound Forge. You THINK you know more than you really do, you don't! And, I suggest you check the DX version on your computer. The minimum required is 6.0. For whatever reason, SF has stated that SF5.0 MAY not work on Win98 first edition. I run it on Win98 first edition and all is good. Digital editing software cannot perform miracles. |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/26/2001 11:08:39 PM
Well, let's see. I think maybe you should have stuck to your original concept: "Uh, a lot of what you wrote does not make any sense." Obviously, you started from that point and then moved on from there. You wrote: "The Smooth/Enchance feature is not designed to work like an EQ, like you expected it to. You should have used a graphic EQ. SF5.0 provides three types of EQ. Choose the right tool for the job!" I don't know where you hallucinated that I wanted it to work like an EQ, but with lines like "Choose the right tool for the job" there just might be a future for you over there at Home Depot. The fact is, as I thought would have been obvious from my post, that I wanted it to add a small amount of brightness/ambience, which is exactly what 'smooth/enhance' is supposed to provide, and which it has, in fact, provided for other songs I'd edited using SF 4.5. My complaint was that there was no discernible effect beyond +1, something I'd never encountered before using 4.5. Furthermore, you state: "The fact that you could not cut the hiss was because your file's hiss probably fell BELOW the cutoff frequency of 6kHz." and... "Digital editing software cannot perform miracles." While it may in fact be the case that the hiss fell below the cutoff frequency of 6kHz that SF used in its preset, the Nero de-hiss routine that came basically free with my CD Burner removed it perfectly. So unless Nero has suddenly made inroads into the miracle business, Sound Forge has some catching up to do. It shouldn't take a degree in physics to remove tape hiss. Obviously Nero has found a way to do it; Sound Forge should be able to at least match the performance of a 'give-away' program. But thanks a million for your most thoughtful reply. SK And btw - Maybe you ought to get clear on what's actually being stated before you try to jam your inaccurate advise down people's throats. |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: jgalt
Date:10/27/2001 5:03:50 AM
sk: I use SF 5.0d and it properly does those things that you expected it to do. I wish I could suggest some reason(s) why your installation does not perform as expected but I haven't a clue. I *suspect* the problem is in your installation - something isn't correct. That's a profound statement isn't it?! |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/27/2001 5:31:00 AM
Well, J, I'm glad to hear the program is working for you. And since my original post I have been in touch with tech support and may be closer to working out a solution. They sent me some different 'presets' and offered some different suggestions as to how I could achieve better results with the program, one of which was to not use the ExpressFX plug-ins. (I did not realize that the ExpressFX plug-ins that were basically designed for SF XP were packaged along with the more 'robust' XFX1,2,&3 plug-ins. That appears to be part of the problem.) And the subsequent communications with SF's tech support were much more on target than the initial communications. My original post was as much focused on the lack of response from tech support as it was on the problems with the program itself. So maybe the situation is heading towards a more positive resolution, which would be nice because I had enjoyed using 4.5, and was really looking forward to maximizing 5.0. There's a lot of satisfaction in being able to not only make CD compilations whose sonic quality rivals commercial products, but in some ways surpasses them. SK |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: beetlefan
Date:10/27/2001 7:29:24 AM
You didn't mention using the Express EFX in your original post, did you? |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/27/2001 3:25:05 PM
I didn't know about it until Lance pointed it out. It never dawned on me that there would be anything else in the 5.0 program besides Sound Forge 5.0. But apparently the ExpressFX plug-ins are shipped with the full Sound Forge program. |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: beetlefan
Date:10/28/2001 1:38:46 AM
Actually, all of the effects in Sf 5.0 are now Direct X, so one can use then in any other DX audio editor. This is a real plus because I prefer to work in Cool Edit but there are times when I want to use SF's effects. They also use less processor power. For some reason, using some of the Express FX makes my programs crash. Perhaps they are incompatable with the newer versions in 5.0. |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/28/2001 1:48:04 PM
Uh, Beetle[fan], I just saw this post over at Syntrillium's CoolEdit site (thanks for that tip, BTW). It sure sounded an awful lot like you, and with a whopping 1,220 posts over there (as of 1/26/2001) (do you find time to do anything else?) I was pretty sure it was you. You know, for a guy who seemed to trash me for posting some criticisms of SF 5.0, you seem to have a double standard, don't you think? Or have you been fooling around again with those settings on CoolEdit's Brainwave Synchronizer? You know, you really have to be careful with that stuff or it can (has already has?) definitely mess up your brain. My suggestion to you is: "Just say NO!" "I just downloaded and installed Sound Forge 5.0 beta. You guys have little to worry about. The GUI is still crappy and it is as slow on a fast new machine as it is on my old 166 Pentium. But it has real time effects that work in my old PC. SF's strengths have always been in their plug-ins which are easy to use. But, I can't use any files from Cool Edit unless they are 24-bit or 16-bit. Their CD Burning app is still crapppy as can be! It will only let you burn track-at-once with NO tweaking whatsoever! They will probably charge $500 for this. Their dithering and noise shaping sounds good and their "Wave Hammer" is highly configurable. And, still no built-in NR! As long as you guys give us some of the advantages of SF plus RMS normalizing I won't think of looking elsewhere. Cool Edit is still the BEST!" [Signed: "Beetle", 1/26/2001] Best regards, there, Beetlebug. I mean, fan. Or whatever. |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: beetlefan
Date:10/29/2001 8:04:51 AM
No double standard! I still feel that way. But, i'm not going to continually trash SF on their own forum. And, I still use some of SF5.0, so why not share some knowledge and experience with the SF users? It seems to me that most SF users don't even know what 24-bit and 32-bit is all about. You know, I did say something negative about SF here once and they removed it. I guess they can't take much criticism or advice. Their shareholders wouldn't understand. The way I see it, even though I am a devout Cool Edit user, and some others are devout SF users, and some people use other apps, we are all in this together in that we are using this type of software for the love of music and the creation of it. I don't work for Syntrillium but I am loyal to their product because I believe it is overall the best for what I do, audio restoration. |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/29/2001 4:52:03 PM
Well, that certainly clears up a lot. And you did say you didn't work for Syntrillium, not that you didn't work at all. But what about that brain synchronizer? You maxing out on the settings, or what? Y. |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: beetlefan
Date:10/29/2001 5:16:06 PM
Heh! Yeah, I do have a day job. But I've been posting there for over a year, and before then before they started that new website on audioforums and then Pixelite. That many posts build up fast! I am just another obsessed music freak. |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/29/2001 7:43:01 PM
The BRAIN SYNCHRONIZER, bettlebrain... everybody wants to know about you and that BRAIN SYNCHRONIZER, man! RESPOND! lol sk! |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: beetlefan
Date:10/30/2001 8:32:44 AM
I can tell you that the first time I tried it I wanted to kill the person that bugged me on some audio forun! |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/30/2001 3:29:59 PM
Uh, yeah. That's what I suspected. You probably have one of the settings misadjusted. Or you might just be expecting miracles from the software. sk |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: Rednroll
Date:10/30/2001 9:59:35 PM
SK, don't worry. Beetlefan is a definite Moron, and if he trashes Sound Forge and endorces Cool Edit Pro, then it is actually beneficial to SF. He often makes dumb ass comments, and acts like he knows something about audio, and you will find time and time again, where I have to come in and prove him wrong. Look at part of his original Post: "If you cut the bass you WILL effectively increase the frequencies above the "turnover" frequency. This is supposed to happen." Anyone who knows anything about audio can tell that this statement is completely wrong!!! If you cut a frequency it does not boost the other frequencies around it. and there is no such term as "turnover" frequency.....it's known as the "cut-off" frequency. Beetlefan has just enough knowledge to be dangerous to himself, but unfortunately he has read too many things and does not truly understand any of them. Basically put, he's a moron and any advice he gives should be ignored. Brian Franz |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: beetlefan
Date:10/30/2001 10:34:18 PM
I tried it ONCE three years ago and felt enraged. You should know that this stuff does not affect everyone in the same way. For an example, some people drink alcohol and feel relaxed. I'm one of those people who feel angry if I consume even a half a wine cooler. I do not drink and I am a layed back kind of person by nature. Just don't piss me off! :) |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/30/2001 11:27:15 PM
And do you notice he says "Uh" a lot too? lol. sk |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/31/2001 6:34:58 AM
Uh, Beetle... Just curious on this one... Were you ever in any theaters of combat where toxic agents were sprayed indiscriminately that have been shown to cause long-lasting side effects... side effects... side effects.......... ?????????? sk (and btw - Unless you're a fan of dung beetles, the musical group is Beatles, beetle.) |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: Ted_H
Date:10/31/2001 2:27:24 PM
This is a software forum, not a place to rip on beetlefan. Trade ideas, not insults. E-mail each other directly if you must bicker about who's right or who was exposed to toxic chemicals. Ted |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: pb
Date:10/31/2001 5:21:19 PM
Your hissy fits are great!! Thank you both for making me laugh out loud at the end of a long day of shooting out in the cold. I am going to share your bickering session with my PAs via the video projector tomorrow morning before we leave for the field. Peter Burn |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/31/2001 5:37:18 PM
Well, Ted H, point well taken. (Of course, I wasn't the one who called him a 'moron', but be that as it may, don't take that as license to come down on Rednroll either. He was just callin it the way he was seein it. And I had noticed an inordinate amount of comments from beetlefan that were so way off the mark they did make me wonder how or if his brain were actually working.) sk |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/31/2001 5:37:50 PM
Uh, thanks, I think. Remember.. it's only rock and roll.. but I like it. sk |
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Subject:RE: A couple of problems...
Reply by: sk
Date:10/31/2001 5:39:54 PM
And btw Ted H - I would be nice if your company were as responsive to this site with regard to actually providing the types of improvements to your product (like DAO, for pete's sake) that even novice customers such as myself see the value in. sk |