Subject:This Feature drives me crazy...

Posted by: taborda

Date:9/29/2001 9:57:58 PM

After saving you could not undo anymore...why?

Subject:RE: This Feature drives me crazy...

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:9/30/2001 1:30:35 PM

This is SOOOOO basic to the way a computer works I can't believe ANYONE is actually asking it!

(((The second you save something you cannot UNDO it!))) Your saved file becomes the original file. If you don't want to save your changes don't save them! If you want to save copies of your original and your progressive work smake a COPY of your original file FIRST.

And, to avoid mistakes, don't use the "open as direct file" option. besides, if you use it you will slowly destroy your sound quality.

Subject:I don't believe...

Reply by: taborda

Date:9/30/2001 3:57:01 PM

...that someone could say that in nowadays. Dont you know that you can save and undo in almost ANY program, except SOUNDFORGE??? Try with Dreamweaver and then, with Paint Shop Pro. I believe you will be amazed...
But thanks anyway.

Subject:RE: I don't believe...

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:9/30/2001 5:47:07 PM

Sorry, I don't know what Dreamweaver is and I don't use Paint Shop pro, and I don't know what you do with those programs, but in AUDIO applications it is NOT possible! Once you save your work that's it!

The best you should do is either not to save your changes, or make backups first.

If your program crashes, it's OK because SF saves a temp file, a kind of crashguard, if you will.

Subject:RE: I don't believe...

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:9/30/2001 6:34:02 PM

I have to disagree with beetlefan, I just made this same comment in my wavelab vs. soundforge post. Why can't you save the undo history of a Wave? Sound forge saves a .SFK file which contains region info, why can't it contain "undo" info? My point was when I work on a picture in Adobe photoshop it saves the "undo" history so that I can get back to the original photo even after I save, and after I close the program. What's the difference between a .WAV file and a .BMP file? The answer should be nothing because a computer sees both as just being data.

Subject:RE: I don't believe...

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:9/30/2001 7:23:38 PM

Disagree with me all you want! But, you're talking about what COULD be and what SHOULD be, but it is NOT what it IS. Those .sfk files do store your undo info BUT once you save the file you change the .sfk data.

If you want to keep your original files you should

1. make backups

2. don't save your work until you are satistied with the results

3. use the "save as" option and rename the altered file.

In suppose that HD space anf file size are the chief reasons audio editors aren't made to work the same way other programs do.

programs like SF and Cool Edit are stable enough where I don't worry about crashes. And if I do crash these programs have crashguard protection. I know that in Cool Edit I can come right back to the point where I left off after a crash because of those .pk files.

And, the nice thing is that if you disable "undo" you can still revert back to your original file upon closing.

Subject:RE: I don't believe...

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:9/30/2001 8:25:00 PM

Hmmmm, guess I must be stupid for disagreeing. Dahhhh...I wonder why when you do a Save in vegas why it doesn't wipe out the "Undo" history? I guess this just can't be done in an audio program?
I love it when people talk out their ass, with no supported knowledge. Keep up the good work beetlefan :-)

Subject:RE: I don't believe...

Reply by: jgalt

Date:10/1/2001 8:33:38 AM

I should know better by now than to enter into this, but -
I think some are missing beatlefan's point. There is a big difference between what COULD BE, what OUGHT TO BE and what actually is. It is like saying "Why didn't they do it this way?" The point is that they didn't do it that way and I must learn to deal with that fact.

Subject:RE: I don't believe...

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:10/1/2001 9:25:38 AM

When you do a "Save AS" you don't destroy your original file. I was keeping in mind that MOST newbies don't do this. Before you go accusing me of talking out of my ass you ought to check your breath!

Subject:RE: I don't believe...

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:10/1/2001 9:29:59 AM

Thank you jgalt. That's EXACTLY what I meant! I have used several editors and they all work a bit differently. I don't like the way some work but I learn and then deal with it. I don't expect ALL programs to work the same way. I work around what I don't like and use what I do like.

Someone once told me to not learn the program but learn HOW it works. That way, you don't get stuck knowing only ONE type.

Subject:RE: I don't believe...

Reply by: Ted_H

Date:10/1/2001 10:21:47 AM

Don't forget guys - if somebody says something that you don't like, simply click on "Ignore this user" next to their name and you won't see their posts anymore. It's so much easier than typing nasty responses :-)

Ted

Subject:There are a misunderstood in here...

Reply by: taborda

Date:10/1/2001 10:40:08 AM

The REAL problem is not the SAVE or THE SAVE AS matter. The REAL problem is that after saving, and with SF still open, you could not undo the file. If the program is STILL OPEN, with the file STILL ON IT, you should be able to undo, even after saving over the original as the majority of the programs do. But SF doesn't.
This feature is very useful for you to compare sound quality after processing.

Subject:RE: There are a misunderstood in here...

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:10/1/2001 11:08:21 AM

And again, taborda, you must SAVE your original for comparison. Just because another program you like works that way doesn't mean ALL programs SHOULD work that way.

Subject:RE: This Feature drives me crazy...

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:10/1/2001 2:41:58 PM

"This is SOOOOO basic to the way a computer works I can't believe ANYONE is actually asking it!"

Nice thinking.....And why doesn't Vegas wipe out the Undo when you do a save? I can't see why "ANYONE" would be asking this either?....what a fucking moron

"Sorry, I don't know what Dreamweaver is and I don't use Paint Shop pro, and I don't know what you do with those programs, but in AUDIO applications it is NOT possible! Once you save your work that's it!"

Like I said, why doesn't this happen in Vegas when you SAVE and it happens in Sound Forge? I guess Vegas isn't an "Audio application"? Good answer boy wonder!!!

This isn't a problem that we don't know how to deal with, the original post didn't ask for that and it didn't ask for YOUR work arounds, we've already figured that out without YOUR help. It said, this is something that "drives me crazy" and I agree. A good piece of software works for the user, not the user working for the software. We're just asking why and hoping to get an INTELLIGENT response, which clearly isn't coming from Beetlefan, because you've been proven wrong with every statement you've made so far. If you don't want Sound Forge to get up to date with every other program, I imagine it won't be around for very long to worry about. The funny thing is that one of their software (VEGAS) has this ability and the other doesn't (Sound Forge), you think they could be uniform in their programs, especially seeing Sound Forge 5.0 was SUPPOSEDLY programed from scratch after Vegas 2.0 had already been released for a year. I'ld like to hear a Sonic Foundry tech guy answer this question, rather than some idiot who has no clue as to how any other software works besides Cool Edit and Sound Forge.

How about it Ted or Peter?

P.S. Ted, he doesn't put me on ignore, because he might actually learn something, instead of spewing non-sense and ACTING like he knows something. It's "SOOOO basic, I can't even believe I have to explain this!!!" ha!! what a genious!!!

Subject:RE: This Feature drives me crazy...

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:10/1/2001 3:08:23 PM

WRONG asshole! YOU are the weakest link!

goodbye!

Subject:RE: This Feature drives me crazy...

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:10/1/2001 3:44:11 PM

Again, you dazzle us with your intelligence. I guess if you where SOOOOOO smart you could answer.....but obviously, you are the one who is "Wrong"

Subject:RE: This Feature drives me crazy...

Reply by: BrentA

Date:10/2/2001 11:02:13 AM

What do you mean by, "If you use it ('open as direct') you will slowly destroy your sound quality."

Subject:RE: This Feature drives me crazy...

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:10/2/2001 1:35:08 PM

Because you will then be working on a 16-bit file without the benifit of the 32-bit processing that SF 5.0 now offers.

As I explained in another thread, everytime you perform a transform on a 16-bit word you increase the word length. If you save your changes back to 16-bit, as in "direct mode" the software must dump the extra numbers to get back to 16-bit. If the software at least uses analog noise, or dither, to smooth out the quantinization noise produced by this process it may be a bit better. But repeated processes with the possible buildup of dither will not only reduce the effective bit depth of your sound to less than 16-bit but literally destroy the sound.

This has happened to me so I know by first hand experience. The first effects of processing a 16-bit file is a thinning of the sound and loss of clarity. The extreme loss is actual breakup of the sound.

If you care enough about the sound of your file or don't intend to do more than one or two effects or gain changes you can probably get away with it. It depends on you can hear. But, by all means, use the regular method of opening. Direct mode is only there for the convenience of working a bit faster.

Try this link for a more in-depth (no pun intended) look at what is happening.
http://www.digido.com/ditheressay.html

Subject:RE: This Feature drives me crazy...

Reply by: BrentA

Date:10/2/2001 5:37:26 PM

Ah...I see what you're talking about. Yeah, I'm familiar with that issue though I haven't run into it firsthand. Good food for thought though and the article looks to be a good informative overview of the subject. Thanks for the link. Regards, Brent