How do I encode WMV so it plays smoothly?

Laurence wrote on 10/5/2011, 10:28 AM

I have given up on using Vegas to do wmv encodes. Vegas 9 did a so so job of wmv encoding. With Vegas 10, well let's just say that wmv encoding is one of the bugs that will never be fixed now that Vegas 11 is on it's way. Vegas 10 wmv encodes produce files where the audio and video lengths don't even match. Just terrible.

Microsoft used to have this handy Windows Media Encoder as well as some other useful utilities for things like trimming, muxing and demuxing the audio. Unfortunately Microsoft no longer supports this free version and it has been removed from their website. I still use it for those rare times when I want a decent wmv encode. The basic encoder is still here (but who knows for how long):

http://download.cnet.com/Windows-Media-Encoder/3000-2212_4-14887.html

Now instead of this, Microsoft is pushing it's "Expression" and "Expression Pro" encoders. The regular Expression encoder is limited to 10 minutes or less of encoded video. Here is a chart explaining the differences between the old and new Microsoft wmv encoders.

http://www.microsoft.com/expression/products/EncoderPro_Overview.aspx

Sidecar2 wrote on 10/5/2011, 10:50 AM

Wow. This is terrible news. 90% of what I deliver is WMV for PowerPoint.

My entire purpose for pushing Vegas in our corporate Windows world was so I could drop last minute WMV's on the timeline, edit rapidly, and return them to the customer. At the time our Macs running Media 100 took hours to import WMV frame by frame and Vegas was a clearly more efficient system.

Now you tell me my eyes and techniques are not failing me; that Vegas screws up the encode. It's like it's cutting corners or skipping frames, regardless of bit rate and resolution.

Very disappointing. Quicktime to Episode Pro delivers a terrific WMV.

TheHappyFriar wrote on 10/5/2011, 10:52 AM

I use the Vegas 10 WMV encoder all the time. Nothing seems out of sync or place. Renders faster then the other codec's that Vegas can encode to (with the exception of the native codec for what I'm editing)

Sidecar2 wrote on 10/5/2011, 10:57 AM

Happyfriar,
My encodes aren't out of sync. They just don't play smoothly nor appear sharp. It's like they play some frames, freeze for a couple of frames, then continue. Annoying as all getout.

Laurence wrote on 10/5/2011, 11:07 AM

Encode a wmv in Vegas 10 and drop it back on a Vegas timeline. Look at where the audio and video end. This sort of thing bothers the heck out of me.

On the other hand, Vegas can use wmv files on a timeline just fine. It's the renders to this format that I don't like.

Daniel, it sounds like your problem might more specifically be a problem with resampling and framerates. Are you rendering to 29.97 wmv? Is your source material also the same? Right click on one of the wmv clips on your timeline and see if the framerate is exactly 29.97? My guess is that it is slightly off and that Vegas's resampling is trying to make up for this. That it is the resampling of the framerate that is what is bothering you.

If so, right click on each of your source clips and turn of resampling on each clip and see if you like the results of your render better.

TheHappyFriar wrote on 10/5/2011, 11:12 AM

Encode a wmv in Vegas 10 and drop it back on a Vegas timeline. Look at where the audio and video end. This sort of thing bothers the heck out of me.

I've seen that but I've seen that in many different file formats, as long as the sync is fine I've never cared. :)

My encodes aren't out of sync. They just don't play smoothly nor appear sharp. It's like they play some frames, freeze for a couple of frames, then continue. Annoying as all getout.

What's the specs on the project, footage, render settings and computer specs? Any one of those could (in theory) cause issues. WMV is accelerated on some vid cards with some players, that could help/hinder you too.

Laurence wrote on 10/5/2011, 11:14 AM

Also, keep in mind that wmv is an evolving format which now supports encode things like h264, but the Vegas wmv encode is something of a relic from the past. It makes sense to me that a Vegas wmv encode would not be as smooth or as sharp as one that made use of the newer encode options.

What media player are you using to play back your wmv encodes?

musicvid10 wrote on 10/5/2011, 11:14 AM

One of the pitfalls of WMV as a distributable media in general is that it is not universally playable except on Windows boxes. You should experiment with different formats. The oldschool fallback, of course, is MPEG-1 which will play well 99% of the time on any platform. I still use it for distribued PP presentations..

The newer PP versions "may" support AVC/MP4 video, however I don't know because I still have PP 2000.

Sidecar2 wrote on 10/5/2011, 11:38 AM

I'm playing back on corporate Windows machines running Windows Media Player 11 or older. Can't be sure of the player...there are thousands of machines that might try to play the file, plus PowerPoint, which has its own player.

The timeline is set to 720x480, 29.97, pixel aspect 1.2121 (DVD wide screen spec) to play the VOB I copied from the DVD's TS Video folder (did not import via Vegas' Import from DVD menu option.)

Rendered out using same settings, keyframe every 3 seconds. Also tried 854x480, 29.97, square pixels.

musicvid10 wrote on 10/5/2011, 1:09 PM

"I'm playing back on corporate Windows machines running Windows Media Player 11 or older."

Tried MPEG-1?
And unless your playback screen inside PP is 480px height, you don't need your video that big. Smaller will give you more CPU overhead. The PP downsizing algorithm is pretty sloppy.

Laurence wrote on 10/5/2011, 1:12 PM

I know you need to use wmv on your timeline, but are you sure you really need to use it for your final renders? I find mp4 renders to be better all the way around for video distribution.

Sidecar2 wrote on 10/5/2011, 1:20 PM

What pulldown do you use in Vegas to render to MP4?

Sidecar2 wrote on 10/5/2011, 1:24 PM

We used to release everything in MPEG-1 for its reliability and universality, but recently most people request WMV. They really have no clue, of course. WMVs are much smaller and have the potential to look better than MPEG-1...assuming I can get Vegas to render them nicely.

The WMV's coming out of a coworker's Final Cut system are stunning. Grass always greener....

I thought the MPEG-1 codec was no longer officially supported by Microsoft.

musicvid10 wrote on 10/5/2011, 1:29 PM

"I thought the MPEG-1 codec was no longer officially supported by Microsoft. "
Maybe not. I don't have Win7 to test it on.

Laurence wrote on 10/5/2011, 1:31 PM

I would try a test render to mp4 and challenge yourself to find a single playback device that it doesn't work on: PC, Mac, iPhone, iPad, Android phone, tablet etc. You will find plenty of instances where wmv doesn't work (Macs, iPhones, iPads, Androids, etc) but my guess is you won't be able to find any current device that doesn't work quite well with the mp4s.

Also, while h264 mp4s make use of GPU acceleration, the only WMVs that do are ones that are encoded with the h264 option enabled which is only available on the $200 Microsoft Expression encoder. This means that netbooks that have a single core atom processor and some sort of integrated graphics accelerator (basically all of them) are going to play back wmv, but they are going to struggle with it as they do. The same netbooks will fly through h264 mp4s. Of course that should only be evident at HD resolutions and you are doing SD.

Sidecar2 wrote on 10/5/2011, 3:16 PM

Took your challenge: rendered default setting on "MainConcept AVC/AAC (*.MP4)"

It only plays back in Quicktime player. WM player reports it doesn't have the correct decompressor. And when it plays in Quicktime, it still plays haltingly.

Is there a different MP4 encoder pulldown option I'm missing?

Laurence wrote on 10/5/2011, 3:47 PM

That's weird, on my computer I can play back mp4 video with Windows Media Player, Windows Media Player Classic, VLC and Apple Quicktime. Quicktime is the least smooth of all the players, but it is still not bad even with 1920x1080p resolution. I usually use the Sony mp4 compressor but it should be fine with the Main Concept one as well. I don't remember installing a playback codec for this. This seems very strange that it isn't working for you.

24Peter wrote on 10/5/2011, 6:47 PM

Win 7 WMP has native. mp4 support. Older versions of Windows need codec to play .mp4's in WMP.

FWIW - I get great HD 720p .wmv out of 10e. Almost comparable to my MC. mp4's @ the same bit rate/ resolution.

Steve Mann wrote on 10/6/2011, 12:02 PM

"; that Vegas screws up the encode."

Don't blame Vegas for Microsoft's changes to the WMV encoder DLL. (We've learned to not blame Vegas when Apple changes Quicktime.)

Laurence wrote on 10/6/2011, 1:27 PM

except that Vegas 9 still encodes it fine. I figured it was Vegas's fault since it was working in one version and not in the next.

amendegw wrote on 10/6/2011, 1:53 PM

Sidecar2,

I've been loosely following this thread for a few days, and I'll bet your answer will become clear if you post the following.

1) What are the specs of your source footage? Get MediaInfo and post the results back here.
2) What are the specs of your bad/choppy video? Post MediaInfo results.
3) What are your current Vegas Project settings? They should match the answer you gave in 1)
4) What is the framesize you wish to use in PowerPoint (e.g. 320x120)?

...Jerry

btw: Other than some minor audio syncing problems, I've had good luck with the Vegas WMV encoder.

Steve Mann wrote on 10/6/2011, 3:03 PM

Good question. It's possible that it's a licensing detail (with Microsoft) and Version 9 is using a different VFW DLL file than Version 10?

Soniclight wrote on 10/6/2011, 11:14 PM

I use WMV relatively often and chose my render options carefully. One thing I have run into is that whatever WMV encoder is present in my VP8 or VP10 can at times freak out with certain pixel ratios that aren't straight 1.000 and I get an "unknown error..." after a minute or less of beginning to render. And/or due to some video bit rate chosen, i.e. one that isn't a standard one offered by the encoder.

My understanding (may or may not be correct), is that Windows Media Player likes 1.000 ratio best -- and this probably applies especially to older WM players. Hence why I try to kiss its derrière by not freaking it out with exotic render settings...

Last, in my experience, Windows Media Player can occasionally hiccup on files. Testing them with VLC or other player that can run .WMV files is one way to see if the problem is a playback problem in one's WM Player or and encoding/render one.

Something probably already considered and tested by Sidecar2....