Subject:Buses

Posted by: Marc1

Date:8/4/2011 7:03:01 AM

Can somone explain the benefits and example of using buses??

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: collinsylex

Date:8/4/2011 9:42:08 AM

I send groups of audio tracks to buses so i can apply the same processing to all the tracks routed to the bus... say it took a vocalist did their verse 2 bars at a time, you can just route the stack of clips to a bus and treat them all with one set of controls!


TIP: ACID does not do delay comp on buss tracks so you shouldn't use any plugins on a buss that introduce extra latency... this is the biggest shortfall of the bus system.

last night i routed 2 buses to another bus so i could compress them together *make em gell! It was the first time i tried that, (was to make 2 vocalists gel on a chorus section)... worked out pretty good! Fun Stuff

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: Marc1

Date:8/4/2011 11:22:15 PM

Thanks.But most tracks need different processing like say more volume or more eq so when they are all in one channel dont you lose editing power ?Are you saying you Bus all the lets say the vocal tracks to one bus after you have adjusted levels added effects and eq them ?Or are you saying 'one size fits all 'when your editing your bus tracks with effects or EQ.Is busing more about organising and clearing up some space ?When you say gel did you mean if you use the exact same effects or EQ by running them threw a single bus they sound like they gel ? Marc.

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/5/2011 5:34:23 AM

Google "stem mix".

The basic idea is that common groupings of tracks can be sent to a common bus so that once the mix of the tracks is how you want it, you can adjust them as a group relative to other tracks or stem mixes. There are no hard fast rules.

Wrt processing, a better approach is to use an assignable fx send bus. You set the fx on send to be wet and then send the tracks or bus to assigable fx bus. This is for fx like reverb or delays. Other processing - compression, eq - are better done on the bus or track directly. This allows you to cut a space for the track or bus within the overall mix.

Of course, this all depends on what you want to achieve. Experiment. Listen to other material that has a mix that you are trying to achieve. Then listen again.

Peter

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/5/2011 5:35:32 AM

TIP: ACID does not do delay comp on buss tracks so you shouldn't use any plugins on a buss that introduce extra latency... this is the biggest shortfall of the bus system.

I am not seeing this behavior in ACID. I am not reproducing this problem. Perhaps you could describe your workflow and identify the plugins that are causing this problem. The more detail you provide, the better.

Peter

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: collinsylex

Date:8/5/2011 10:11:29 AM

Hi Peter, Thanks for taking an interest in this issue!!

I hadn't REALLY noticed an issue with this untill i purchased a bunch of Sonnox plugins. The main problem is "Supressor". It comes with 3 versions of the plugin (Low Latency, Normal, and Hi Res). Each version has a different amount of plugin latency it introduces. The HI RES introduces a SILLY amount and the Low Latency introduces about 500samples. (still quite a bit but should be manageable by the delay compensation engine)

Initially I believed the Low Latency version would be safe to use on a bus. But, when i sent the main vocal to a bus and left the backing vocals with their default routing (just to main outs) ALL OF THE SUDDEN it sounded like the vocalist did a bad job of tracking the backing vox.. the timing was OFF. I found this rather odd because it sounded perfect when we tracked it... Then, i removed the bus routing and all of the sudden everything was tight again...

I started investigating, and testing, and found that to get SUPRESSOR to be compensated for, i would have to apply it directly to the audio track... THEN I had a rude surprize!! After rendering with the supressor directly on the audio track, it caused the final bounce to GLITCH out in a bad way (happened over a few projects i bounced out that night). I had to remove supressor at that point and give up on it.


So, here is a test you can do to reproduce my problem.

-record a bit of audio to an audio track (something with transients so we can hear time issue easily)

-duplicate the track (and turn em both down a bit for safety)... Play the tracks.. Sounds like 2 exact tracks playing ontop of eachother... GOOD so far!

-Now send one of those tracks to a BUS. On that bus, insert a L2 or an Oxford Supressor, or even Oxford dynamics (has about 50 samples which is enough to start hearing a problem...)

-Play the tracks again, at this point you should hear one bouncing off the other due to the plugin latency on the bus!!


I have done a bit of research on this issue, and found that when ACID is doing delay compensation on an audio track, the plugin tab thing (i dunno what its called) changes color to show its compensating... On a bus, there is no change in color.

I have been using Oxford dynamics on buses because i have been able to live with the 50samples its causing. I really hate the fact that its putting whatever i feed it a bit behind but so far, i have been the only person to realize its even happening!

Peter, if your Acid is doing delay compensation on the buses, I wanna trade computers hahaha (or pleazzze direct me to the option in my preferences to enable it!!!!)

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: collinsylex

Date:8/5/2011 10:24:33 AM

Hey Marc,

yes, eq and such on each track is important..When you use a bus, you don't actually loose the abilitly to fine tune the individual tracks (volume, pan, track eq/inserts and even FX sends still work just fine).

Actually, i will often use the track eq and such to match things going into a bus (like say we had to fix 1 line of a track a month later when the variables have changed... i will send the new clip to the same old bus and use the track eq to make it match the old takes better as needed)

But here is what i am talking about...


Say you have a main vocal part that is spread out over about 8 different clips. Each clip is supposed to sound conisistant to the last.

You have a few options.

Option 1: You could work with the first clip and get it sounding the way you like it... then you could move to the second clip and try make it match the first (perhaps using a preset for your plugin settings or whatever...) then you could move on and do this over and over again. Say you need 3 plugins on each track to get them to sound the way you need.... This is kind of a LONG process and you'll end up with far more plugins active than needed. AND say you realize after setting all those plugins that you had too much treble in general... well, now you have to go back and tweak the eq individally on each of those clips again... its so much easier when they are grouped by a bus!!


Option 2 is to copy all the clips into one track (crossfade where needed ) and process from there... Well, SOMETIMES you don't even want to crossfade parts that are supposed to overlap for a second...) Not a bad option, but not quite the best for ME.

Option3 is to BUS those clips together and treat them as one thing again... Any overlaps will be a non issue and all should be good! I like this in most cases but not all.


When i was busing 2 busses to 1, it was because i wanted seperate processing for each set of voices, then i wanted to process them together so that when they were singing together they could be compressed together and "gel". A bit complicated to explain but ya, it worked hahaha


I hope it makes better sense!

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: Marc1

Date:8/5/2011 10:17:59 PM

Thanks Collinsylex and Peter I kinda get it but i'll experiment and see what happens.When my acid software is running smooth(which is most of the time) I love it.The more I learn the more I see how truly powerful it is.I think people who dont like acid are people who haven't given it a long enough chance.Thanks again Marc

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: collinsylex

Date:8/11/2011 2:08:23 PM

Hi Peter, Any word on this??

I double checked again what i explained... I personally re-did the test i spelled out in the above post... My results:

tested with a high hat sample, L2 and Oxford dynamics (active but doing nothing) on the bus each gave me some serious comb filtering against a dry track routed to the master out... Sonnox Suppressor Low Latency version actually completely removed the high hat from the original putting it about a 3rd of a beat late!!

Does it really work better on your rig?

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: pwppch

Date:8/11/2011 4:28:00 PM

I don't have the plugins you do. I am arranging to obtain them. However, I cannot reproduce with other plugins that do report a delay/latency.

Once I find out what is going on, I will post back here.

Peter

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: ozzborn

Date:8/13/2011 9:56:04 PM

Is it true that acid does not have delay compensation on the busses? that would explain some of my issues for parallel compression.

I thought acid did comp on busses?

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: collinsylex

Date:9/8/2011 3:46:27 PM

So, several weeks later and still no Yes/No on this issue....

why is it so hard to test this???? there are free trial versions of the SONNOX plugins if you own an ILOK... you do own an ilok right?? you have an internet connection to download the trial? (few MB not GB) Even if you don't wanna download the sonnox plugs, you must have SOMETHING installed on your machine that didn't come included with ACID?? Alot of higher quality/resolution plugins usually will introduce some level of plugin latency... don't you have ANY high quality plugins on your machine??

If not, its cool.... forget this problem and get back to answering newbiez questions regarding the use of a volume slider and finding their soundblaster cards in preferences...


Sorry if I'm being a bit harsh, but as i have been watching for an update on this issue, i have only really seen people with the most BASIC issues and questions getting resolved, and of course theres also the people dreaming of acid 8.. I'm getting very bored of this, imma keep focusing more on my cubase and protools workflow, I think its about time to ditch acid... I've been resisting it for YEARS, ever since buying Liquid Mix and it totally messing up in ACID, then Melodyne plugin, then Sonnox Supressor, and more and more... ACID is cool, but i can no longer deny, its pretty limiting to the modern producer... YAY, acid sucks! i finally admit it LOLOL

Subject:RE: Buses

Reply by: pwppch

Date:9/8/2011 6:20:10 PM

Nothing to report.

You should submit a report through the normal channels.

Peter