Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid -ACID Product Family

ACID Product Family

Subject:Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Posted by: Maruuk Date:8/29/2001 1:35:13 PM Cakewalk's new "Plasma" (available 9/7/01) has full support for Acid loops, full midi sequencing, Fruity-Loops Acid loop creation, extensive DXi soft-synth/plug-in support (includes the most popular analog synth), extensive DXi efx and unlimited AUDIO MULTI-TRACKS. (sorry for the caps, but I just sort of lost it there after all the crap we've put up with from Acid's half-ass audio record "feature"). Oh, it costs only $1,599.00--NOT. It's really $49. This is not a misprint. Pop Quiz: why doesn't this blow Acid totally out of the water?
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: gbat Date:8/29/2001 11:57:03 PM Wow! Interesting! C'mon, SF, raise the bar again!
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Rockitglider Date:8/30/2001 12:50:44 AM Well It looks like you can't save to MP3 or burn CDs without buying other software, and you can't upload to Acid Planet. See ya, Rockit
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:8/30/2001 1:44:53 AM It must render in some format, WAV I suspect. MP3 encoders are freeware so it's a minor annoyance. CD burner software comes with most PC's, looks like a zero sum for additional cost. Proclaims right in the SF catalog: Acid Pro 3.0 has "unlimited audio tracks". Dudes, that would be actionable if it weren't so funny...
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: billybk Date:8/30/2001 8:07:09 AM It supposedly is already XP compatible too. Now that ACID has midi support, I would not think it would be that difficult to implement DXi Softsynth/Sampler support. Maybe, thay are saving it for the next ACID 4.0 feature set. Billy Buck
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:8/30/2001 1:20:48 PM Blly--Have to agree there. With Reason, the ReWire system and Plasma all starting to make Acid Pro 3.0 look dated, buggy, and toy-like, SF has to be going nuts to implement a major integration breakthrough in 4.0. Or they are toast.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: billybk Date:8/30/2001 2:19:22 PM I don't think it should be that difficult. SF has some pretty smart programmers. The big thing was finally getting midi support in ACID 3.0. Without midi support I don't see how you can effectively integrate a DXi/VSTi solution into a digital audio program without having access to midi input/output controllers. With the DXi/VSTi revolution in full swing, the challenge for SF is to be able accommodate this exploding technology in their apps. The digital audio only programs of the world are gonna have a hard row to hoe. Some of the softsynth/samplers coming on the market sound simply amazing, and we are gonna want programs that can play them effectively. The days of having racks and racks of keyboards, sound modules and effects are coming to an end. All you need is one midi contoller and a Ghz+ computer loaded with virtual insruments and effects, the software to run it, and of course, some creative musical talent wouldn't hurt either :) Billy Buck
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Iacobus Date:8/30/2001 4:59:44 PM I didn't see anywhere that Plasma will have support for 24-bit input/output like ACID Pro has. Personally, I'm not impressed. Iacobus
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: billybk Date:8/30/2001 5:25:24 PM I didn't see anywhere that Plasma will have support for 24-bit input/output like ACID Pro has. Personally, I'm not impressed. Iacobus Well for $49.00 retail and probably $25.00 street @ Best Buy what would you expect. Maybe in the $99.00 Plasma Plus version :) For a $25.00 program, I am extremely impressed. They may as well give it away. It even includes the Dreamstation DXi softsynth to get you started, which alone is worth more than the cost of the program. I think the price is too low, it should be around $99.00 retail IMHO. Billy Buck
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:8/30/2001 5:54:57 PM Given the fact we're in 16-bit loopworld anyway and Cakewalk makes solid, lo-bug apps, this is a phenomenal product. Besides, it may well have 24-bit support, most recent apps do. Most software dealers are retailing it for $39. Dinner at TGIF costs more.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: MarkKn Date:8/31/2001 1:28:13 PM One thing to keep in mind, Cakewalk doesn't have anything right now except a press release. In the software business that is known as vaporware. Nobody is getting gauntletted or blown away until this is released and proves itself. The press release says Sept 7. This product is not available from their site. One would hope this does indeed spur SF on to greater things with Acid.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:8/31/2001 2:58:24 PM Mark--I've found a lot of e-tailers already listing it and Cakewalk has an excellent product shipping record so I doubt there's any smoke and mirrors here. I see this as all good news for Acid lovers: a great expansion of capability in Plasma and/or a huge kick in the ass to SF to get us wired into a true multi-tasking, integrated single environment. Adapt or Die is the applicable t-shirt logo here, featuring a graphic of a Dodo trying to midi-route-sync a multi-track, softsynth and soft-sampler app to Acid Pro 3.0. Or maybe Plasma is more like the asteroid which wiped out all the dinosaurs in one Big Bang...?
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Rockitglider Date:8/31/2001 3:12:28 PM Wow, You've got super high hopes, But I guess I've spent fifty bucks in worst ways before. But it is good to keep the market competitive, and it lowers prices. I'd like to add that I have yet to find an application interface as easy as Sonic Foundry products yet, I think all the Cakewalk Apps that I have are too complicated. See ya, Rockit
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:8/31/2001 3:31:03 PM Rockit--It's tough to pull a lot apps together into a master interface--Reason is pretty good, though very assumptive that the user is familiar with old analog hardware. It'll be interesting to see how easy Cakewalk makes the DXi plug-in operation work for the user, and if the DXi/VST conversions work as planned.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: stevengotts Date:9/2/2001 10:54:45 PM acid pro rocks yah I agree. magix has had a product that appears to have more features including soft synths and surround sound. but in usability compatibility and quality its quite amaturish. Acid Pro 3.0 alone stands out as your only choice. Sometimes the cheapest product is just that, and their is usually reasons its cheaper. nuff said.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Rockitglider Date:9/9/2001 10:58:29 PM Hello again, How about those system requirements for Plasma *364 MEG Of Ram*, And just as I thought the CD burning is via Pyro Trial Version, And I already own that and I'm not too impressed with it.So with the Ram and CD burning software you would have to buy, it brings the price right up there with Acid, And one more thing it still has that complicated Cakewalk interface. Anyway, Just my thoughts. I guess I'm partial to Sonic Foundry Products. See ya, Rockit
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:9/10/2001 12:01:50 PM What's the #1 complaint about Acid Pro 3.0? That it plays one-shots off the HD and causes glitching and nightmareish sync headaches. I don't know how many irate posters are pining for 2.0 and the all-in-RAM loads. So with their Big RAM requisite, Cakewalk is merely acknowledging that Acid had it right in the first place, but screwed it up. You can walk into any Costco and buy 256 megs for $35 so 364 megs ain't exactly a piggy-bank breaker. Acid does one thing so the interface is going to be simple. Plasma does many things simultaneously that Acid cannot do--the interface has to reflect that complexity. "Reason" did quite a good job at clarity, but its downfall is the lack of Acid support, and no integrated audio recording. Plasma looks like a tease for Sonar, which streets for around $350. But it's a helluva tease, given its capabilities for $39. Many users won't need to go beyond it, but Sonar also has Acid compatibility, with massive bundled plug-in firepower. Acid Pro 4.0 is simply going to have integrate and bundle bigtime to catch up. And it will likely cost about what Sonar is going for now without this silly hyper-inflated SF "list" pricing at 150% over street which screws the novice and rewards the pros who know how to find the big discounts. In short, SF will have to join the mainstream in terms of content, quality and cost. Ever wonder why you can get Acid Pro 3.0 for $149? Maybe that's what it's worth...
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Rockitglider Date:9/10/2001 2:04:47 PM Plasma is not $39.00 it's more like $59.00
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:9/10/2001 3:19:44 PM PC Stop = $39.62 Kernel Software = $39.23 Sparco = $39.73 I could go on, but... Look, I admit Cakewalk has positioned it as a stepping-stone product for Sonar--but Acid 4.0 (if SF steps up and delivers the goods) will also be in that $350-street range and that is the true competetive arena for pro, do-it-all apps. Acid is ultimately a plug-in, not a destination.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Iacobus Date:9/10/2001 5:11:03 PM Why talk about ACID Pro 4.0? SF could just implement new features with an update to Pro 3.0. They've done it before. I think we also have a while (a couple of years?) before SF even releases version 4. They released 3.0 just a short few months ago. ACID is just one of the tools available in a whole suite of tools from SF. It simply compliments (and is meant to compliment) other apps like Vegas Audio, Sound Forge, etc. It's (far superior) strength is loop-based music creation. It would be a mistake to think of it as a "be all, end all" app. No one should get the idea as such. And while I'm at it, I think it would be a mistake to make ACID a do-it-all app. It would just complicate things. Maybe that's why SF didn't include full-on MIDI sequencing. shrug Iacobus
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:9/10/2001 9:04:53 PM Well, when they move to actual integration and standards adoption, they'll jump to 4.0. Acid is just like a mid-life crisis, mid-size company who used to be a star on its own, but now needs a buyout or merger to be competetive. You can't just do loops anymore and expect to move product. You can't just tell your loyal customers to sync up a bunch of apps via midi sync if you need 'em. Especially when your techs are out in the forums correctly warning folks about the many dangers inherent in that approach: "Do not attempt to sync Acid with audio with any other audio apps!" (just one response I got from SF). If Acid is to evolve beyond brilliant toy status, it needs to adopt interoperability standards like ReWire and VST. MOTU, Logic Audio, and many others get this--so far, SF does not. Pros need samplers, synths, drum machines, a wide range of plug-ins, and an industry-standard looper all seamlessly integrated behind a single skin. All mixed/rendered through a single soft mixer. Like I said, as the industry-leading looper, Acid can either lead, or become a virtual plug-in for the competition. In fact, with Plasma, Sonar and hopefully Steinberg/Propellerhead's Reason, they already are. Armstrong invented modern radio, but Sarnoff made it a business. SF showed the inspiration--now they need the integration.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: yegge Date:9/12/2001 1:06:13 AM I've been reading all the postings since September 10th and even downloaded a trial version for the Plasma software, despite the jaw dropping memory requirments of 364MB RAM. I just three weeks ago bought a 256 MB Dimm for the price that Maruuk conveyed you could get for only $35 bringing my system to a whopping 312mb of RAM, and for CakeWalk to tell me that I don't have enough memory to run effectively their $35 application is insulting. As an artist I perfer to create my own sounds with guitar, Bass, percussion etc. using ACID PRO 3.0, SoundForge 5.0, & Vegas Audio 2.0 to modify the sounds into loops & Tracks. I understand not everybody has the money to spend on the pro versions of these Apps but understand that if you buy ACID PRO for the full or upgrade price you get streamlined versions of SoundForge & Vegas Audio which only limits to 8-tracks. However if unlimited Audio Tracks is what you need but can't afford Vegas Audio 2.0 full version have a look at Cakewalk Home Studio 2002. It provides unlimited track capability in both the MIDI World and Audio yet only costs $129.00 or $49.00 for the upgrade and doesn't require a rediculous amount of RAM. I feel this is where Cakewalks victory competing in this market against SF lies, for if I had known this prior to purchasing Vegas Audio 2.0 I would have choosen Home Studio 2002. However I fail to see a similar success in Plasma Vs. ACID PRO 3.0. Yes, I do believe in "you get what you paid for" in Plasmas' case the price is low for a reason and that is your gonna pay more for upgrades in RAM, and those with a 2 DIMM Slot Processor board your looking at more that one 256MB DIMM for $35. Just my thoughts and $.02 worth.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: MarkKn Date:9/12/2001 9:27:43 AM I guess Plasma was a lot more exciting in the anticipation than in the flesh. These memory requirements are certainly cause for concern. Maybe it was written in Java.
Subject:RE: Plasma hurls down gauntlet to SF/Acid Reply by: Maruuk Date:9/12/2001 1:28:49 PM Guys, they're practically giving memory away and all pro audio apps (which are rapidly integrating and standardizing product) are rapidly increasing the minimum memory req's across the board. 512megs is going to be the new bottom line within 12 months, so you can get with the program now, or later, but we're all going to have step up sooner or later. Why Big RAM? As I said before, the biggest problem with users and Acid/audio is 3.0's reading off the HD: massive glitches and sync errors. All these poor dudes are pining for 2.0's RAM load. Plasma is just aknowledging that's the way to go. Plus, you're ignoring a few minor Plasma enhancements over Acid which use RAM: The synth The TRUE and INTEGRATED audio multitrack recorder, which can actually record more than 3 tracks IN SYNC TRUE MIDI recorder with full piano-roll editing Fruityloops Full DXi plug-in support for anything you'd care to add All of the above is in a single, seamless environment mixed and rendered straight to MP3, WAV or whatever. And if you don't already have a CD burner and burner software, you don't deserve to live anyway. I'm not touting Plasma, I'm just pointing out that SF's Acid product has fallen way behind the times in terms of usefulness to pros who haven't got time to wire together a whole bunch of disparate apps which won't render internally through a single mix system. That's almost as bad as the old hardware rack system. I work with film composers all the time--products like Reason and Sonar, and Nuendo (with it's ReWire standard) have become their gods overnight because of their integration. Time is money to these guys. Not to mention you can save A SINGLE SETUP for all apps and retrieve it at once. Try that with a bunch of incompatible soft-apps all midi-synced up and having to mix outside to some DAT dinosaur. I shudder at the very thought. Integration or dissipation.

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