Sony Vegas.....is Pro???

Pavlos wrote on 1/11/2011, 2:00 PM
hey
still after the 10b setup i dont have markers at the trimmer with eos and some mp4 files. If i have everyday a 20-40 min interviews in every 3/per day projects how can i edit them? how to tell to my journalist that WE CANT WORK LIKE WE USED TO 15 YEARS NOW.
So i asking again is Vegas a Pro ?
Sony have a very good relationship with the professionals and special with the broadcasters. I know Sony u Know that markers are the most useful "trimming tool" in a tv edit suite.

So U gave us the possibility to play (not smoothly as others do ) EOS files but not markers.
So u push me again to transcode or to go to other solution.
Thank u Sony i ;m a big fan of your products and this is sad.

Comments

farss wrote on 1/11/2011, 3:23 PM
"Sony have a very good relationship with the professionals and special with the broadcasters"

That division of Sony has nothing to do with Vegas. If you talk to the broadcast division they'll tell you to call Avid.


Bob.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 1/11/2011, 6:59 PM
I don't think anyone serious about editing should use mp4's personally. They're like editing mpeg-2's 10 years ago. Now editing mpeg-2's is fine but it took years for computer & software to get good enough to handle editing them.
farss wrote on 1/11/2011, 9:31 PM
"I don't think anyone serious about editing should use mp4's personally"

Gee thanks from me and all the XDCAM EX shooters / editors here.

MP4 is a container and in the case of XDCAM EX it contains mpeg-2 along with a whole host of goodness specifically to ease a production's workflow.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 1/11/2011, 11:34 PM
Bob? Is there a Universal convention as to what goes into an MP4?

Grazie

deusx wrote on 1/12/2011, 12:03 AM
Vegas has its own way, just go with it ( who needs the trimmer, just trim on the timeline ) . Complaining now that you can't work like you used to 15 years ago is like complaining 15 years ago how your PC based NLE wouldn't interface with moviola and you had to do everything on the PC ( or something like that )

.
farss wrote on 1/12/2011, 1:03 AM
" Is there a Universal convention as to what goes into an MP4?"

The contents are not fixed but how the container describes the contents is: MPEG-4 Part 14

The codecs that maybe used within the container are defined in another part of the MPEG-4 standard, there's provision for timed subtitles and also for extensions including metadata. I believe Adobe convinced Sony to use mp4 for the XDCAM EX cameras for its flexibility and Sony have made extensive use of it themselves within the camera and through the Clipbrowser.

I believe the markers the OP is talking about can actually be added to a clip in the EX cameras and he's dead right, this functionality is ages old even with tape based cameras and linear editing systems. This provides a mechanism for editing without cutting by using take/no-take and in/out points recorded in either memory chips in the tape cassette or in more modern times as data within a container.

Bob.
Pavlos wrote on 1/12/2011, 2:15 AM
Ok i know XDCAM EX very well and all ok with that.
I know very well what is container & what is MP4.

But why i cant save markers on EOS files? thats my Q and dont trying to justify Sony and Vegas(why vegas 9 does). it's an issue and u know that. and yes professionals use trimmer.
if u have hours of video u cant trim on timeline easily.

I don;t want to spend my time on transcodings TODAY that all the competitors NLE's have forgotten that(except FCP).

I have install a lot of Vegas in broadcast environments and all are very happy. I want VegasPro to be a real Pro.
Thank u all for your responses!




Grazie wrote on 1/12/2011, 2:27 AM
"The contents are not fixed but how the container describes the contents is: MPEG-4 Part 14"

So, THF, that's the further, and I see helpful, response to your comment. Not all MP4s contain the same but there IS a convention as to HOW those contents are "described". So some contents of a given MP4 MAY have edit issues(?) or not at all(?) - while others are straightforward.

Until I'm corrected on this point, I would step away from taking a pro and non-pro view.

Grazie
farss wrote on 1/12/2011, 3:50 AM
"So some contents of a given MP4 MAY have edit issues(?) or not at all(?) - while others are straightforward"

Clearly yes, the contents can be encoded with a codec that the system cannot decode. I don't see that as an issue so long as the codec in use is within the scope of the spec then the party using it is playing by the rules. The party whose software cannot decode it simply has their code say "Sorry, me no understand this".

Then again this is not an "edit issue" as such. Vegas can edit eos video, Vegas can edit XDCAM EX. I would say the key question boils down to the extent to which it supports Sony's own XDCAM EX camera systems. I would say a Pro would take software written by a Sony company to fully support Sony's own camera systems when they claim they "support it". Anyways this isn't helping the OP much at all, my comments were more in response to others comments than anything else.


Bob.
farss wrote on 1/12/2011, 3:56 AM
"But why i cant save markers on EOS files? thats my Q and dont trying to justify Sony and Vegas(why vegas 9 does). "

Can I ask you to elaborate this a bit more just to be clear?

1) Are you saying the functionality you're after worked in V9 and does not work in V10?

2) If you open the eos clips in V10s trimmer and add markers and then put the clip onto the timeline do you see them?

3) If you save that as a project and then open it again are they still there?

4) Are you expecting these markers to be visible in a 3rd party app and they're not?

5) Have you reported this problem and if so have you had any response?

Bob.
farss wrote on 1/12/2011, 4:09 AM
OK, excuse my previous questions, I just realised I had some EOS footage at hand.

I can repo your issue exactly, truly wierd. Open in trimmer, add makers, put clip on T/L. Add an MXF EX clip, do same thing.

Save project, open project. MXF clip's markers remain and EOS clip's markers are gone !!!!!!

Sorry Pavlos, I cannot even begin to imagine how this can go wrong.
The only hope you have of getting it fixed is by SCS fixing it.

Bob.

[edit] For the sake of completeness I should add that the EOS file I used was from a 5D and it is in a .mov container. Whatever the issue is it is not specific to the mp4 container.
LoTN wrote on 1/15/2011, 1:39 AM
Same with MTS files from and HDV cam.

Using VP10, put markers and regions using the trimmer. Saved the markers and regions from within the trimmer. Closed all Vegas sessions. Started two empty projects and put the same footage on the TL:

Markers and regions are visible with VP9, not with 10b
Dreamline wrote on 1/15/2011, 11:24 AM
Vegas 10 c is so bad I'm looking into other editing software. It is hard to find good programmers these days and Vegas 10 is a clear sign of the time period we live in.
Sony programmers are not hungry enough to come up with anything good. From my standpoint (Vegas 7 to Vegas 10) the software is very unstable and going downhill. The new programmers of Vegas are killing Vegas original design & intent. Soon vegas will be another app whose chief design is to buy extra addons and not speed of workflow. Sony get it together!
liquid wrote on 1/15/2011, 2:19 PM
I transcode and while it's a small pain in the rear it's really worth it because I get markers, smoother play back and an increase in over all stability. Even if Sony did markers in mp4s I'd still convert as I find the process rather painless and really not that time consuming.
LoTN wrote on 1/16/2011, 8:37 AM
farss said:
For the sake of completeness I should add that the EOS file I used was from a 5D and it is in a .mov container. Whatever the issue is it is not specific to the mp4 container.

This is weird, before filling a support ticket I did some more tests with different containers (mov, mts, avi, mxf and mp4) using VP9 and VP10. The outcome is that markers go away only with the mp4 file (GoPro). MOV files are from FCP.
farss wrote on 1/16/2011, 12:07 PM
Nothing really wierd. Both MP4 and MOV are only containers same as AVI. MP4 and MOV are identical container systems. The MOV files from the 5D are AVCHD in a MOV container, you should in theory at least be able to rename them to .mp4 and all will still work.
All my results seem to show is that the problem is probably not related to the container but rather to the codec inside the container.

Bob.
LoTN wrote on 1/16/2011, 1:17 PM
Yes I know that. What puzzles me is that the OP says in another thread it worked with VP9 while I just verified it doesn't work with gopro MP4s even with VP9. But is it really the same issue, I don't know yet.

I agree this may be related to the codec but I fail to understand the relationship with the sfl files content.

I will ask SCS support for inputs.
Pavlos wrote on 1/19/2011, 5:21 PM
about week and still no answer from Sony support.
Rob Franks wrote on 1/19/2011, 7:15 PM
FARSS:"The MOV files from the 5D are AVCHD in a MOV container, "

There is no such thing as "avchd" in a MOV container.

avchd is a unique format all on its own. It comes as a MTS file on the cam and gets dumped into a M2TS container on computer.

Both MOV and AVCHD do use the mpeg/avc/h.264 codec but that does not make them interchangeable. MOV for example may contain AAC but AVCHD can not. AVCHD may contain AC3 but MOV can not.

Don't get the two confused. They are not interchangeable, they are not the same, and you certainly will not find one IN the other.
Grazie wrote on 1/19/2011, 9:03 PM
As media evolves, and the continuing free-for-all "enthusiasm" exhibited by companies, racing to get their latest capture devices "out there", our need to understand just what it is we have captured, or been handed, continues to be the challenge for all of us. Even more so as there appears to be less and less of a global adherence to any set of media standards or conventions.

Conesquently, is the only help for those of us not skilled, or aware or conversant with the complexities of these differences, the media analysis s/w G-Spot? I use GS at times when I'm completely banjaxed by challenging media and not having a clue as to what is going on inside that enigmatic wrapper.


Grazie



ushere wrote on 1/19/2011, 9:44 PM
well said grazie!

oh for the days of betasp. hell, even dv was pretty simple compared to the crap that's floating around nowadays.

i have clients / students emailing me that ____ camera they've just bought takes spectacular pics, but for some reason don't show-up / play / have missing sound or audio / freeze their tl / cause havoc in one form or another / etc., and not just in vegas.....

frankly i'm happy that i'm semi-retired, i just can't keep up with it all (gopro, flip, etc.,), and i admire bob immensely for his technical erudition in the arcane science of codec interpretation!

i'm with you, g-spot and hope for the best.

farss wrote on 1/19/2011, 9:49 PM
"There is no such thing as "avchd" in a MOV container"

I'm NOT confused. AVCHD encodes using a limited set of the H.264 specification and carries it in a mpeg-2 transport stream. It's a doodle to wrap it into a MOV or MP4 container. Should one still call it AVCHD or not? Perhaps technically not because AVCHD is a trademark and AVCHD only permits recording in a m2t transport stream. Then again it also specifies playlists, stills etc. So technically once you've transfered it Vegas and all those are lost should you still be calling it AVCHD?

As far as I'm concerned if the actual vision conforms to the encoding constraints of AVCHD then its reasonable to call it AVCHD or H.264 regardless of the container.

All fo which is quite irrelevant to the issue at hand here.

Bob.
Rob Franks wrote on 1/20/2011, 4:31 AM
"As far as I'm concerned if the actual vision conforms to the encoding constraints of AVCHD then its reasonable to call it AVCHD or H.264 regardless of the container."

If I am not mistaken the 5d shoots 30p at a data rate of well over 24Mb/s.

AVCHD does not support 30p and it has a max data rate of 24Mb/s

So.... WHERE exactly do you see the "actual vision" conforming???

Yes.... you ARE confused, and furthermore it's rather inaccurate statements such as yours that has everybody and their grandmother confused on the term "AVCHD"
farss wrote on 1/20/2011, 1:12 PM
AVCHD doesn't support progressive either and yet there's cameras out there with the AVCHD logo on them that do.

AVCHD was agreed on as a strictly consummer format that recorded to optical disks that were BD compliant. The intent being that the user could take the disk out of the camera and play it in their set top BD player. Editing could be done in camera using playlists.

"So.... WHERE exactly do you see the "actual vision" conforming???"

Frame rate is irrelevant, if you think that makes a shred of difference you know nothing about how things work or at least should work. So long as the frame rate is correctly reported then any app should read it correctly and decode it correctly. Same goes for bitrate and I'm fairly certain that the 5D records at under 24Mbps.

Where you seem to be getting yourself confused is you think AVCHD is a standard, it isn't. H.264 is a standard, MP4 is a standard, HDV isn't a standard. Standards are published by bodies such as SMPTE, ISO and EBU.

I'm still waiting to hear what relevance this has to the problem of V10 failing to save event markers. The whole point of my original post was that the problem may be tied to the codec and not the container, certainly my tests showed this. The intent was so that people here sending in bug reports could better describe the problem in the hope of it getting the attention it deserves. I trust you have made the effort to repo the problem and have filed a report?

As for:
" furthermore it's rather inaccurate statements such as yours that has everybody and their grandmother confused on the term "AVCHD""
I deal with grandmothers on a regular basis in this business. I've yet to find one who isn't thoroughly confused by everything, I've had one who didn't even know if she wanted a still camera or a video camera.
As for everyone else, I don't find any confusion that causes any issues at all. So far you're about the only person who seems to have issues with it.

Bob.