Subject:Realtime render of loop region

Posted by: jyoung50

Date:12/12/2010 12:18:47 PM

I need to render a portion of a track that is sent to a hardware synth (Virus TI). I see an option when rendering to a new track to only render the loop region but no option for realtime rendering, which the TI requires. Is there any option to allow me to do this?

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/12/2010 8:33:23 PM

"I need to render a portion of a track that is sent to a hardware synth (Virus TI). I see an option when rendering to a new track to only render the loop region but no option for realtime rendering, which the TI requires. Is there any option to allow me to do this?

iyoung50"

Why don't you simply record the output of your Virus TI into the input of a new ACID Audio track (driven by your MIDI track, of course)?

Yes, its an extra step but once your TI is converted to an ACID audio track, you can then perform your Render.

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: jyoung50

Date:12/12/2010 8:53:08 PM

The input from the TI to Acid is through USB and digital. I'd rather not go through an extra D->A conversion.

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/13/2010 11:36:54 AM

"The input from the TI to Acid is through USB and digital. I'd rather not go through an extra D->A conversion.

iyoung50"

You lost me on that one.

If you record your TI (digitally - ADAT, TDIF, S/PDIF, what ever) into a new ACID track and then perform a project Render to stereo (digitally) there is no digital-to-analog conversion in those two processes.

Please explain what you mean because we are obviously talking about two different things.

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/13/2010 2:31:01 PM

iyoung50,

What version of ACID are you using?

ACID Music Studio does not support "Real-time" rendering.

ACID Pro 7 does support "Real-time" rendering.

If you are using AMS8, then the above described work-around should accomplish what you need. If that is not acceptable to you, you can always upgrade to AP7 or use another DAW which does support real-time rendering, such as Pro Tools LE or Cubase 5.

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: jyoung50

Date:12/13/2010 8:51:43 PM

I'm running Acid 7.0e Pro.

The thing is, I'm running the TI in "integrated mode" utilizing a VST control that allows full configuration of the hardware instrument and the ability to treat the TI as a software synth, yet have the quality of a hardware instrument. In order to not do an A/D conversion I need to use the USB output.

It looks like Acid is not going to support what I need to do, at least in this version. I've been trying out the new version of Sonar XI and so far it is looking good. Cakewalk has really improved the playback of Acidized file on this version.

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: drbam

Date:12/14/2010 6:00:23 AM

With all due respect, can you actually hear the difference in the additional conversion pass - especially in context with the mix? Unless your converters suck really bad, I seriously doubt this is a real-world concern as opposed to a theoretical stance. Most of the best sounding and best selling recordings have multiple passes of A/D and often involve lots of vintage analog gear that can be quite noisy (which you only hear if you solo the instrument or efx return). Use your ears to determine what sounds best and serves the music and don't get hung up on on that technical purist stuff. It can be an extreme creativity killer.

Cheers . . .

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/14/2010 10:13:04 AM

"I'm running Acid 7.0e Pro.

iyoung50"

Then what's the problem?

Your original post said you want to perform a "Real-time" render...

AP7 supports "Real-time" rendering!

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/14/2010 10:36:16 AM

"With all due respect, can you actually hear the difference in the additional conversion pass - especially in context with the mix? Unless your converters suck really bad, I seriously doubt this is a real-world concern as opposed to a theoretical stance....

drbam"

Agreed. His System Specs shows that he's using a Tascam FW-1884 Firewire Mixer/Interface which has pretty good converters.

I remember being at a producer's convention a few years back (either AES or NAMM) and BT gave a challenge to a room full of top industry producers. He played back a piece of music in two different formats: (1) mp3 and (2) .wav

He asked anyone in the room to identify when he changed formats. No one raised their hands. These were some of the top music producers in the industry and they couldn't tell the difference. I surely couldn't.

There's a much bigger quality hit going from .wav to mp3 than there is crossing the converters on a high quality semi-pro mixer/interface.

I still don't get the extra A>D conversion the OP is talking about. If ACID is treating his VIRUS TI as a VSTI and is reading & controlling it digitally then where is the A>D or D>A conversion? USB is a serial digital protocol.

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: jyoung50

Date:12/14/2010 8:58:00 PM

>>I still don't get the extra A>D conversion the OP is talking about. If ACID is treating his VIRUS TI as a VSTI and is reading & controlling it digitally then where is the A>D or D>A conversion? USB is a serial digital protocol.

My original question was about being able to real-time render a portion of a track. I'm not interested in any workarounds or comments like "what's your problem?". It's a simple question. Obvious Acid 7 does not support it, so I'll find a tool that does.

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/15/2010 12:54:02 AM

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/15/2010 12:53:10 PM

"ACID does not allow for realtime rendering individual tracks. Only real time rendering of the project is provided.

I'd be interested in what tool you do find that permits what you want.

Peter"

Pro Tools LE does this...it was part of v5.1 that I had ten years ago. You simply muted the tracks that you didn't want to be included in the "Render". So, if your project included 21 tracks but for some reason you wanted to Render 3 of them, you muted 18 and performed your render. Accordingly, if you wanted to Render 1 track, you muted all but that one.

I'm surprised that VP7 does not allow this function. (I actually own AP7 but have not installed it yet -- been using VP9 & VP10 and Cubase AI4 for audio recently).

In those days PTLE v5.1 had a strick track limitation of 24 so the "Selective Rendering" function (as I'll call it) allowed a creative engineer/producer a way around that limitation. I haven't used versions 6 - 9 but I suspect they work in a similar way.

Too bad the OP "took his ball stomped off in a huff". I wanted to find out some more details about those multiple A>D-D>A conversions of his.

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/15/2010 1:20:03 PM

"...I'm not interested in any workarounds...

iyoung50"

Gee, that's too bad. "Work-arounds" are a good engineer/producer's stock-in-trade!

One of the most celebrated examples of this is Sir George Martin's work with the Beatles. He didn't allow the limitations of "four track" tape recorders to stop him from creating that huge exciting sound he made for them.

Another example of creative "work-arounds" are those early Les Pau & Mary Ford recordings. He invented over-dubbing. A work-around for the ages!

"Work-arounds" are a good engineer/producer's stock-in-trade!

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: drbam

Date:12/15/2010 2:42:03 PM

Multiple passes through converters to utilize outboard and/or analog gear isn't a workaround. Its simply how its done. Some people are more focused on the anal purity of the process as opposed to whatever is required for a great sounding end result. To each his own . . .

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/15/2010 3:26:08 PM

PTools has always been realtime render only. I don't k now about the latest version.

I have not found it in Sonar, but I don't have the latest. I could not find this functionality in cubase - render track to new track in realtime. I believe that reaper cannot, but I have not looked.

Peter

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/15/2010 4:03:48 PM

" I could not find this functionality in cubase - render track to new track in realtime.

Peter"

I don't know about "Render to a new track" either, but you can certainly "Render to File" and import that file back into the timeline. That's one extra step -- not a big deal to me.

Twenty three years ago I was syncing an Eight track reel-to-reel to a hardware MIDI sequencer that was driving a rack of hardware synths. I used a SMPTE to FSK/MTC converter to run the MIDI sequencer.

Coming from that technology to what is available today is like a dream. (Unlimited audio/video/MIDI tracks, virtual processors, virtual instruments...whew!)

Subject:RE: Realtime render of loop region

Reply by: sodbuster-ca

Date:12/15/2010 4:46:09 PM

"Multiple passes through converters to utilize outboard and/or analog gear isn't a workaround....

drbam"

Well, in general that's true (if the device is connected via analog ports). It's not always necessary, though, if you have ample digital I/O capabilities. (I used the run my AKAI S2000 sampler into PTLE via S/PDIF...I used to pump in signals from other devices via ADAT I/O.)

The part I was stuck on was, the OP said "The input from the Virus TI to ACID is through USB and digital". USB [I]"IS"[/I] digital. See, the spec sheet at the Access Music web site says that the TI's USB port carries audio, MIDI and data.

So, based on his post and the TI spec sheet, he's not using the analog interface to record his TI. It's all digital.