Subject:Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Posted by: Rednroll

Date:7/7/2001 12:02:35 AM

I just wanted to say congradulations on your marketing goals. I have noticed the questions in this forum going from semi-pro user levels to downright "I don't have a clue about audio" user. This is what happens when you put professional tools in the hands of the everyday user. I have been using Sound Forge for well over 5 years now, and the questions on this forum are at an all time low level of intelligence. Everyone here now thinks they can produce professional sounding audio by clicking a few buttons without even reading what they do. I would hate to work for your technical support staff now, I know they have to be dealing with some complete idiots on a regular basis now.

Congrats SF,
Brian Franz

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: PhilHemel

Date:7/7/2001 1:39:14 AM

Maybe some of us 'complete idiots' could help you with your spelling and grammar instead? (o:
I've been using Sound Forge for several years and consider myself to be a fairly competent user, but I think it's wonderful that such a great product is reaching a wider audience.
I guess Sonic Foundry COULD limit their sales to pretentious snobs with delusions of grandeur but I doubt if they'd stay in business very long...
Please remember, we were ALL new users once.

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: SaschaS

Date:7/7/2001 12:28:35 PM

Wow, you are perfect ?

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:7/7/2001 3:06:51 PM

I have to jump in here!

I agree with Rednroll to a point. SF doesn't appear to be particularly accommodating to the newbie/novice user, but I believe almost anyone can be brought up to the level we are, Red.

The problem is that SF assumes that the user has a certain level of expertise but they sell the stuff in places like Best Buy, where the average music lover who just wants to get his or her favorite CD's and mp3's on CD-R can use SF without knowing or caring how to use it. So they wind up maxing the hell out of the volume or think they can simply remove all the vocals off of a comercially prepared song so they can rap over it. A little education shows how arbitrarily boosting levels with WaveHammer can screw up your sound. With a little education one would know that totally removing vocals is just not possible.

I hate to say this because it's a compettitor, but I learned this editing stuff with Cool Edit. Now, CE and SF do the same things, and each have their own advantages and disadvantages. But Syntrillium, being a privately owned company, can afford to take the time to educate newbies to bring them up. Their software, I feel, is a bit more conducive to that. With SF you have to know a bit about what you're doing going in. Also, SF makes their plug-ins just a bit too easy to use, just slide a knob here, click a button there, and wham-o! Nothing learned here!

As the products become more commonplace, you are going to get uninformed questions. Instead of bashing the newbie, guide them along. Teach them. No, you can't force them to learn if they don't want to, but you can try.

Just one thing, I *do* get annoyed when people ask the same old question of how they can "remove the vocals and just leave the beats"! Don't these guys realize that people who do this have either specially prepared masters minus vocals, or the multitrack tape? Some people using audio editors have no clue as to how a record is even made, and they want to engineer or remix.

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: KuteKoala

Date:7/7/2001 4:31:32 PM

???
I'm not sure what you're inferring, but it does sound a little on the sarcastic side. Which is a pity, because, the way *I* read Redn...'s post, it doesn't convey in the least the message that he thinks he's such a hot shot way above the common mortal. In fact, even if he was, so what ? Can't people accept that others are more talented or experienced than themselves ? Anyway, as I said, it is not even the point: Red..'s post was, IMHO, not trying to make himself look like the SF guru, but simply pointing out to some valid (I don't necessarily mean "factually exact") points.
Hope you don't mind me posting my feelings about this.
Cheers
Philippe

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:7/7/2001 5:28:38 PM

Ok, let me restate. I'm glad someone realized I was not saying or implying that I'm better than anyone. I just get annoyed with idiot questions cluttering this forum, because someone is too lazy to read the help menu that gives very descriptive uses of all the functions. In most cases if you read these forums, I help out many new users with answers. My point is Sonic Foundry needs forums for "new users".....if you wonder what I'm talking about, then take a look at the "nuendo" forum, WWW.NUENDO.COM. You will see 2 forums, 1 for new users, the other for advanced users. That's because the advanced user comes here to learn new tricks and techniques and get very annoyed with the "HOW DO I REMOVE VOCALS FROM A SONG SO I CAN SING/RAP OVER THE MUSIC", or "How come when I normalize, all my songs aren't at the same level". I've answered these questions in detail 10 times in this forum already. There are many professional tools in Sound Forge, that just need some time and education to learn....most of these "new users" ask a question without even doing some experimenting, because they're too damn lazy. It's kind of like giving your grandmother a bulldozer to weed her garden, when alls she really needs is a shovel. Download some MP3's from napster and find out what I'm talking about. Some people think they're doing us a favor by using a "wavehammer" plugin or adding extra bass to a song, because it sounds so much better on their PC speakers....when in reality these songs have been mastered by a professional that knows how to use these tools, and their added processing does nothing, but makes it sound like shit on everyone elses speakers.

peace,
Brian Franz

P.S. Sorry, I didn't know my spelling was being checked in this forum and knew I had mispelled "congratulations". Is that better?

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:7/7/2001 6:23:10 PM

Thanks Rednroll! I've been coming to this so-called forum for a few months now, and this is the first topic i've seen that has some real fire to it!

Is this a sign that SF is going through some growing pains? As I stated before, the line of questions we get here are a result of SF being sold in places like Best Buy.

There is a new book called "Sound Forge Power!" by Scott Garigus. It's useful for the neophite but it's too somplistic and basic, and doesn't explain hardly anything about how or why something works or how something is done.

SF also needs some full-time tech help here like Syntrillium has on their forums. Their main forum is geared towards the newbie but we more advanced also jump right in!

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Rockitglider

Date:7/7/2001 7:27:06 PM

I agree if people would read the manual and the help files you wouldn't see half the questions in here that you see, and if you really want to learn your going to have to read several books on audio, Midi, Computers, and several other subjects, and the stuff is always changing so your going to have to keep reading even after you learn what you already know. Just do a little research before you come in with dumb questions.

See ya

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: sporter

Date:7/8/2001 6:34:24 AM

Take a break. Your creativity could suffer spending so much time explaining stuff, and if we newbies do not get a reply here, we'll eventualy figure it out. Thanks, but no need to stress over it...

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: MyST

Date:7/10/2001 11:33:48 AM

The manual explains the software quite well, but it lacks the detailed steps needed to accomplish specific effects. I agree, some of us "newbies" are too quick to ask questions on the forum ( I've done it in the Acid forum concerning panning- which I got after trial and error). But I'm sure you guys remember when you first got the program- you can't wait to get that first song, so you get impatient.
I agree we should try harder before asking lame questions.
Also, which books would you recommend that deal with understanding music and the way it can be modified using SF sofware. Ex. pitch modifying, reverb and such?
Thanks for the imput.

Later...

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:7/10/2001 3:05:45 PM

Sound Forge Power by Scott R. Garrigus (Muska & Lipman) 2001.

You can order it from this website. I got mine at Barnes & Noble.

It's not very detailed. It is VERY basic and geared towards the total newbie.

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: MyST

Date:7/10/2001 4:04:36 PM

Thanks, I've got Cakewalk Power for my Cakewalk Home Studio software and find it very helpful. I'll check this one out.
Re: Congrats...
It's unfortunate that experienced users such as yourself have to put up with "stupid" questions on the various SF forums. Although, I think that with the introductory prices offered by SF on their software, you're bound to have to accept them as a fact of life.
At 99$, alot of inexperienced people will purchase them. Mostly experienced professionals would spend the money on these at their regular prices.
However, if you look at it from another angle, these promotions give the opportunity to people to create(remix) music, who wouldn't have been able to do that otherwise.
Ex: I'm a single parent who LOVES music and re-working it. The 99$ price for Acid 3.0 gave me the opportunity to work with music and gave me a good hobby to help relax after a (sometimes) hectic day.
I'll never reach your level of expertise with these products, but I still enjoy them immensely.
I'm not lecturing here, it's just that don't you think that putting up with some lame questions (which you can skip over anyway) is worth it in the long run. The more revenue SF has, the more developement $'s they can spend for futur software.
*No malice intended in this post, I see your point. I just hope you can see mine.

Later...

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Bart1963

Date:7/21/2001 6:43:24 AM

What's wrong with beginners? Everybody has to start and nobody was born with the knowledge. I agree that SF is a very powerfull program and most users don't have a clue what all those lovely functions do. But that is no reason to prohibit them from using it. Most internet users don't have a clue about what is going on when they're surfing or mailing too...

My point is: those users paid to use SF, so let them, and let them pose their (stupid) questions.

Bart

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:7/21/2001 1:50:03 PM

Bart,

When I first got a computer, I played around with things and learned and I didn't have any message board to help out.

When I started doing music on one, which was the same time I got a computer, I did my homework first. I also learned enough over the years so I had an idea of how to do what I wanted.

I also read the help files.

It just seems that most newbies don't want to look up anything themselves, hence the "dumb" questions.

If a person wants to do music on a computer bad enough, they will learn the programs and how they work.

I surf the internet and I want to know how it works so I can use it more effectively. I do the homework.

My complaint is that SF puts out a sophisticated software, markets it to the general public who just wants to make his mp3's louder, then makes little or no effort to help these newbies bring themselves up.

This is why I once suggested that SF may not be the best program for newbies because SF requires that you have a little knowledge going in. This is why I like the way Syntrillium does things. They provide the learning tools. The SF POwer book is a step in the right direction but it is too simplistic and basic. It doesn't even tell you why or how anything.

Again, I was once a newbie, but I did my homework. I didn't have any bessage boards to ask simple questions I could learn just by looking at the help files.

SF's help files are written well. I just wish they were written more in-depth so the newbie had an understanding of what goes on. After all, they sell it in Best Buy!

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Bart1963

Date:7/21/2001 4:51:03 PM

I agree that the manual should be examined before a question is asked, but it's so easy to come out here and ask for help. I prefer to look it up myself. You might pick up something else while searching.

About your point that people don't know what they're really doing: it is my believe that a lot of them never saw any studio hardware at all. And that is the problem. How can you learn what something does if you can't twist the knobs or push the buttons? I always bought one piece of equipment at the time because I felt it was the only way to get to grips with it. When buying SF or software alike, you get everything at once, hence the difficulties of many users.

But I don't think you can blame Sonic Foundry for it. It's not their job to raise engineers. It's their job to provide them with the software they need. I don't expect a car dealer to teach me how to drive a car. I don't expect Sonic Foundry to teach me how to do my music thing. That's something you have to do by yourself (as you did). Stealing with your eyes and hands on experience is the only way to go.

Bart

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: beetlefan

Date:7/21/2001 8:50:43 PM

But Bart,

Using software is the exact same thing as using hardware. You try out each function just as you would hardware. The difference here is that there's the UNDO!

I guess if you are one of those people that don't grasp technology very well I suppose you may have to learn things one by one. Frankly, I never heard of that philosophy.

I believe it is in these software makers' best interest to help their users learn engineering IF they are going to continue to market this stuff to the general public.

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Bart1963

Date:7/22/2001 7:19:02 AM

I suppose it's just me being the knob-twister kinda person... I prefer programming a synth in hardware and the same goes for effects.

If you get one instrument/effect at the time, you can focus all your attention on that piece of equipment. If you get several at once, you have to divide your attention. I'm sure this means that you'll never learn to know your equipment inside out. Learn to use what you have first, then buy new equipment. Sadly, al lot of users only use the presets of their equipment.

I still don't think SF should teach engineering. But I guess they should take the novice users by the hand and help them to achieve the most desired results. Something like the wizards in the Microsoft software. It would keep them away from the forums.

Bart

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Dave2

Date:7/22/2001 10:05:08 AM

Man! I thought things got a little rough at the Pinnacle video editing forums. I haven't seen anything that would top this thread.

I consider my self to be a advanced video and audio editor, been at it for a number of years.

I don't have any problems helping newcomers or sharing tips with more advanced users. I also feel that I can always learn something from someone else.

and thats why I dropped in on this forum. I use several audio editors, including Cake
walk pro 9. seems each one has it's pro's & con's.

I just recently purchased S.F. 5.0 and thought maybe I could learn something here to help me get more out of this powerful program. Instead I find newbes are not welcome with their 'realy dumb' questions

See Ya

Dave Melvin

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: SonyEPM

Date:7/23/2001 9:49:56 AM

Please ask any question you want- there's almost always somebody willing to answer. Even the experts occaisonally learn something in responses to basic/newbie questions.

The help files also cover many topics, so it is worth starting there.

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: sporter

Date:7/23/2001 4:59:01 PM

Hey Dave, it's not too bad here, really. Someone got a little frustrated, and hit the enter key before cooling off. No biggie.

But the original poster did make a valid point. SF prices have dropped to the point that we have a high end program available to guys like me who used to book studio time for demos and such, but now have the tools to do it at home.

But I tell you, I do appreciate answers from experienced, no BS users.

Many thanks!

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Dave2

Date:7/23/2001 9:14:02 PM

Thanks for the Help file advice, SonicEPM. I find Help to be complete and useful. As a new user I use it often. Also I would like to thank Sound Forge for including a complete manual on the CD which I have printed out all the way through Appendix A.

Thanks Again

D. Melvin

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Dave2

Date:7/24/2001 9:42:35 PM

Hello Sporter

Yep, I agree, New users should read the book, learn to use help and try to figure things out for them selfs.

But in any creative environment Basic skilled new comers find themselfs in world where they may not even understand the basic language for that program. If there is a forum for that program and they realy want to learn, they ask the 'realy dumb' questions and from my experence they receive 'realy good answers' It works. After all, todays dedicated new users will be the people answering tomorrows 'dumb' questions.

Also we need to consider people whose language is not English. Surprising what a little understanding and a simple 'how to screen grab' will do for these folks.

Anyway, enough rant from me on this thread.

Right now I am experimenting with Pan/expand. the video scene is a crop duster peeling off from the helicopter I am shooting from. It will be awesome after I get the perfect audio effect.

D. Melvin

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: TheMiracle

Date:8/16/2001 12:14:34 PM

And You Are Damn Right.

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: jgalt

Date:8/16/2001 1:21:52 PM

Wish I'd been born knowing the correct answers to all questions, the knowledge to know which are the right books to buy, the comprehensive ability to understand what was written in them and enough cash to make the purchases. And there is that old saw about "Not being any dumb questions." Admittedly some are difficult to understand. I have also noticed answers that were on the skimpy side but I wouldn't call them dumb either - an attempt was made to be helpful. Uv coarse sum uv us r sew igernut we mite uv speled "Congradulations" wid a "t" insted uv a "d." If I were only as great as I think I am! Come on now, cut the newbie some slack! Been there, done that! I blame contemporary marketing for much but not this.

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:8/16/2001 5:26:17 PM

Lol......Fuck You...ha,
How's that spelling buddy?

Subject:RE: Congradulations Sonic Foundry

Reply by: jgalt

Date:8/17/2001 6:40:52 AM

Loud and clear!