Subject:wow and flutter

Posted by: pivafran

Date:9/28/2010 5:02:18 PM

Is there any way that I can use Sound Forge 9, or even ACID software, to remove wow and flutter from some of my older tapes? Could I use the Pitch Bend or Vibrato effects to accomplish this?

This isn't such an odd question when you understand that I purchased Sound Forge mainly for its Audio Restoration plug-ins. No doubt someone who does this kind of stuff professionally has faced the same problem.

Is there anything available from software vendors other than Sony?

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:9/28/2010 5:32:28 PM

That's a tall order. Plangent does commercial restoration for cinema. Nothing I know of on a consumer level that would automate this. Maybe others know of something.

Much easier to add wow and flutter as an effect than to remove it.

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:9/28/2010 7:07:34 PM

Yup. Pitch bend is the ideal tool for this except that it only allows a very limited number of control points. You'd have to split the audio up into chunks of maybe 4 "wow"s each. That would get boring very quickly. And even if it had unlimited points, adjusting any one of them throws off all the rest that follow so you'd have to work from beginning to end, manually tweaking one point at a time, and make sure it was perfect before moving on to the next.

Flutter's the same, except it's basically wow cubed.

Now, that being said, assuming the flutter was precisely constant (not very likely), you might get very lucky with the vibrato plugin and just happen to pick settings that exactly match the flutter in reverse. You would probably still have to slice it up into lots of small chunks and tweak each one individually. Personally, i wouldn't want to wait on your success for my retirement.

Now, a critical question is, where is the wow & flutter coming from? Was it from the recording machine when the tapes were made? If so, you're probably sunk. But if the tapes are actually ok and it's coming from the playback machine then find a different machine to try!

I've got an assortment of 1/4" stereo and cassette Tascam, Teac, and Akai stuff here if you need someone else to try some samples.

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:9/28/2010 7:19:02 PM

The problem with flutter is the complex phase shifts that occur. They are more significant than amplitude or base pitch variations which could maybe be approximated. Almost impossible to tackle even with something like Audition.

Even Plangent states that their approach is as much forensic art as science. But their results are spectacular in many instances. Their site is worth reading and listening to the samples.
http://www.plangentprocesses.com/index.htm
Be sure to read their FAQ.

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: pivafran

Date:9/29/2010 9:14:25 PM

Excellent answer, Chienworks. Your answer about the vibrato plugin was what I had in mind, that is, matching the flutter (or wow) in reverse and thus cancelling it. Sort of like out of phase sounds cancelling each other, if that is a correct analogy.

Unfortunately, the wow and flutter is on the original tapes. I've tried 3 machines already - they all playback other tapes correctly, but all exibit wow and flutter with these particular cassettes.

Fortunately, little of this material is irreplaceable, but it would cost me a large sum of money to replace everything with CDs.

All I can do is to play around with the pitch bend and vibrato and find out what the results are. Nothing to lose but some time.

Thank you again for your help and valuable information.

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: pivafran

Date:9/29/2010 9:27:37 PM

Hello musicvid and thank you for your reply. Yes, it is a tall order, but I was hoping to avoid the replacement costs that I would incur if I were to replace all these cassettes with CDs. It appears that even if some type of software was available to remove wow and flutter, it would probably be quite expensive. I may be ahead of the game to just replace those albums that are most important to me and forget the rest. Fortunately, most of these tapes can be replaced.

In any case, I will check out the Plangent web-site to find out what is available. At the very least it will be a welcome learning experience. Thanks again.

I just checked out the Plangent web-site. Great information - it definitely appears that wow and flutter can be removed from older source material. With all the re-mastering that's going on I knew that someone, somewhere had addressed this problem. However, I doubt very much that I would be able to afford this solution, even in the very remote chance that they would even consider doing business with me!

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:9/30/2010 6:56:38 AM

There is no service or business that can legally copy your copyrighted music cassettes for you. You would have to do that yourself.

Have you considered downloading your replacement music albums from iTunes or Amazon?

BTW, it's not generally a good idea to expose your email address in your user name. Your forum settings permit you to receive emails from other users without broadcasting the address.

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: pivafran

Date:9/30/2010 7:55:51 PM

I understand what you mean about a third party not being permitted to legally copy my music cassettes, or any other meda for that matter. With the current emphasis on copy-protection we're lucky to even be able to do it ourselves! I still get apprehensive when ripping my CDs to MP3 or WMA files - like maybe I'm breaking some law.

Yes, downloading replacement music from iTunes or Amazon is a very good suggestion. I recently purchased some new CDs from Amazon and I see that in addition to downloading albums that there are also vendors who sell used CDs (and even LPs!) at very attractive prices. That would certainly go a long way to solving my problem.

Thanks so much for your advice on my e-mail address. I'm new to using this forum and in my haste I didn't take all the care I should have. A quick change of my settings should take care of that problem - if it isn't too late!

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: luces1

Date:10/5/2010 8:20:46 AM

OMG pivafran!!!! I NEVER would have thought about using Vibrato to fix flutter and IT WORKED for me!!!! Kick A$$ ! Ha,ha. Thanks!


luces

Subject:RE: wow and flutter

Reply by: pivafran

Date:11/18/2010 8:48:53 PM

Hello, luces1. Sorry I took so long to reply. I'm glad that you had success with my idea. If you have any additional information about how you did it please pass it along.

pivafran