Proof that Vegas' AVCHD playback is broken.

Sebaz wrote on 6/6/2010, 3:52 PM
I found out something interesting about the playback problems that plague Vegas in AVCHD.

Anybody can test this if they want. Start a project with three A/V tracks of AVCHD, select the three video tracks and create a multicam track. Then enable multicam editing to make Vegas play the three sources at the same time. If your system is fast enough to play the three at 29.97 in Preview Full then you should be able to see this with no problems. So set the preview to what I just said, then start playing. All three angles play at 29.97 fps smoothly. Now launch Task Manager and check the Performance tab. CPU usage hovers around 70% (this may vary according to different processors).

Now switch back to Vegas, which should still be playing at full fps, and press J, one or more times, it doesn't matter. Keep going back a few seconds in the timeline. Now press either K and then L, or just L. You'll see that after a second the footage lowers to around 8 fps and then goes up to 9. If you think that pressing K to stop and then L to resume will work, it won't. It goes back to play at 8 fps. And, while it's doing this, the CPU usage goes all the way up to 100%.

Now do this: move the mouse pointer to anywhere in the timeline above the ruler and click. You'll see that it starts playing at full fps again. Click again on different points of the timeline, always above the ruler, and you'll see that it's playing at full fps. Also you can see that the CPU usage went down to around 70% again.

If you want to try this with a single track, it works the same, except that it doesn't go down to 8 fps after using JKL, it goes down to around 20. CPU usage for a single track, in my case is around 20% and after using JKL it goes to around 70%.

This to me makes crystal clear that Vegas' AVCHD playback problems are not only a matter of how fast the CPU is, or enough RAM. This is a AMD Phenom II 1090T CPU, six cores at 3.6 Ghz each (it's supposed to be 3.2 but if Core Boost is disabled in the BIOS, it unleashes all six cores to 3.6) and 16 GB of DDR3 10666 (or 1333 Mhz if you prefer) RAM. If you check the benchmarks for this processor you'll see that depending on the benchmark, the only desktop processors faster than this are the two Intel Extreme editions that sell for over $1000. RAM preview is set to 0 now, but the same thing happened on whatever number it was set to.

Clearly, the problem with Vegas is not a matter of having a fast enough computer. It helps, to some degree, but if you can play your AVCHD footage at full fps from the start, the computer IS fast enough for AVCHD playback. As I always said, it's not the computer, it's Vegas. Obviously when you can play three tracks of AVCHD at full fps, but as soon as you start using JKL it goes down to 8 fps, it doesn't matter if you have a NASA supercomputer, because this tells me that it's not a matter of CPU cycles and efficiency, or not enough RAM, there's something else that's broken there, and it's what SCS has to fix immediately.

Comments

DGates wrote on 6/6/2010, 4:37 PM
Geez, just transcode and save yourself typing MANY paragraphs on a Sunday afternoon.

Some people, I swear.
xberk wrote on 6/6/2010, 4:46 PM
I tried this just now with 3 tracks of AVCHD (1920 x 1080) in Multicam mode. I'm getting 29.97 frame rate nearly all the time. It dips to a low of 20 maybe -- but not lower and not too often. The use of JKL seems unrelated to preview rate for me. In fact, it seems better. Maybe I'm doing the test wrong, but I can't get the frame rate to dip for any particular reason consistently like it does at transitions or FX etc in normal edit mode. It does dip at times, but seems CPU related to me. CPU usage does hit 100% at times, but only briefly and goes as low as 15% but only briefly. If I mouse click above the ruler, performance seems the same. Again, I can't see any linkage between different ways to play the timeline and the frame rate.

i5-750 CPU with 8 gigs of Ram running 9.0e 64 bit and Win7. - Paul

Paul B .. PCI Express Video Card: EVGA VCX 10G-P5-3885-KL GeForce RTX 3080 XC3 ULTRA ,,  Intel Core i9-11900K Desktop Processor ,,  MSI Z590-A PRO Desktop Motherboard LGA-1200 ,, 64GB (2X32GB) XPG GAMMIX D45 DDR4 3200MHz 288-Pin SDRAM PC4-25600 Memory .. Seasonic Power Supply SSR-1000FX Focus Plus 1000W ,, Arctic Liquid Freezer II – 360MM .. Fractal Design case ,, Samsung Solid State Drive MZ-V8P1T0B/AM 980 PRO 1TB PCI Express 4 NVMe M.2 ,, Wundiws 10 .. Vegas Pro 19 Edit

Sab wrote on 6/6/2010, 5:15 PM
Sorry Sebaz but that is NOT the experience I have. Please stop making blanket statements about "proof" and "plague". So far you've proved your system does not work well with AVCHD in Vegas. We get it. Thank you for sharing.

Mike
Opampman wrote on 6/6/2010, 6:06 PM
I guess you need to update your system specs in your profile, Sebaz.
Sebaz wrote on 6/6/2010, 7:06 PM
Geez, just transcode and save yourself typing MANY paragraphs on a Sunday afternoon.

Your sarcastic reply doesn't do anything for anybody. The point here is that editors should not have to transcode a format that is perfectly playable in their computers. Is transcoding done in the same exact time that it takes to import the footage from the card? No. Can you transcode to any format that will allow you to edit but at the same time be completely lossless? No. Should you waste time after importing transcoding to another format instead of beginning to edit? No, unless you have an old computer and you'd rather stay that way.

Please stop making blanket statements about "proof" and "plague". So far you've proved your system does not work well with AVCHD in Vegas. We get it. Thank you for sharing.

Have you not read the many posts from many users in this forum about how AVCHD playback sucks in Vegas? Because I've read quite a lot. If I wouldn't have read so many, I would think that the problem is rather mine. I haven't only proved that my system doesn't work well with AVCHD. This is a new computer. Same case and hard drives, but new motherboard, CPU, RAM and PSU, so in reality it is a new computer. This is the second system I have that has problems with AVCHD, and the previous one could handle AVCHD just fine in Edius, but this one is several times faster, and in fact, one of the fastest you can get without going to dual Xeons or something similar.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/6/2010, 7:14 PM
what's your audio device settings (options - preferences - audio device). I know that depending on what audio device I have JKL can have some issues.
dcrandall wrote on 6/6/2010, 7:41 PM
Sorry Sebaz, I have set up the test as you described and I am not getting the reduced frame rates you experienced. On my system the Task Manager shows CPU usage at a fairly consistent 52% while the timeline is playing.The framerate mostly plays full 29.97 at "Best/Auto" The JKL sequence doesn't change the performance for me.
I wish I could tell you why you're not experiencing the same performance.

System Spec: i7-860, 8GB RAM, WIndows 7 64-bit, Vegas 9.0e 64-bit
-Dan
  • Velocity Micro Z55 Desktop Computer
  • ASUS Prime Z270M-Plus Motherboard
  • Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-7700K CPU @ 4.2GHz
  • Memory: 16GB DDR4-2400MHz
  • 4GB NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1050 Ti Driver Version: Studio Driver 452.06
  • Windows 10 Home 64bit v1909
  • Vegas Pro 18.0 Build 284
DGates wrote on 6/6/2010, 11:41 PM
Oh the irony. For someone that complains about how long transcoding takes, you sure waste a lot of time whining and typing.
ushere wrote on 6/7/2010, 12:35 AM
tried and not having problems (though this is with pal).

however, i NEVER edit avchd directly - i always transcode to mxf if it's going to involve anything more rigorous than straight cut to cut.
farss wrote on 6/7/2010, 12:58 AM
I'd suggest that you're wrong. I've had the exact same problems with any codec. You do not have to use JKL either. Damn annoying when you're jogging with the Shuttle frame by frame and you stop but Vegas keeps going for several seconds.

" it's what SCS has to fix immediately"

I'd love to know how you intend to make them do that and what you'll do if they don't. Voting with your wallet is the only option you have.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 6/7/2010, 1:48 AM
Still slithering towards HD I looked at the new SONY X5 which outputs AVCHD, and that has more than enough stopped me from going the AVCHD route. I've got output on my Vegas9e T/L and it's a sluggish option.

As I say, AVCHD in Vegas is not an experience I want in the future. That's why I'm looking at the HDV-Z7.

Grazie



JJKizak wrote on 6/7/2010, 4:42 AM
I thought Vegas Pro was professional, so why should it have the capability to process an inferior consumer AVCHD product?
JJK
ushere wrote on 6/7/2010, 4:57 AM
grazie,

i looked at the 7 before buying the z5. i love the tape as archive, though i've never played one back yet thanks to the cf recorder which integrates with both the camera and my workflow perfectly....

have a look at it...
Rob Franks wrote on 6/7/2010, 5:06 AM

"I thought Vegas Pro was professional, so why should it have the capability to process an inferior consumer AVCHD product?"

While I completely disagree with Sebaz (and do so most of the time) this is not a fair or even well thought out statement at all. Sony Vegas Pro supports both consumer AND pro cams in AVHCD
Sebaz wrote on 6/7/2010, 6:10 AM
DGates: "Oh the irony. For someone that complains about how long transcoding takes, you sure waste a lot of time whining and typing."

That's a very stupid and unhelpful reply. Not only for confusing the time I used making a test and reporting on it here so other people can see it and pressure Sony to fix it, with "whining", but because transcoding takes several hours, not the few minutes I used typing that post.

TheHappyFriar: "what's your audio device settings (options - preferences - audio device). I know that depending on what audio device I have JKL can have some issues."

That's an example of a helpful reply. Yes, I changed that to Microsoft Sound Mapper and the problem is not as bad, however it still happens. It doesn't happen every single time, but many times it still happens after using JKL.

Regardless, which audio device you choose shouldn't have any incidence on that. If I want to work with 5.1 audio properly, for example, I have to select Direct Sound Surround Mapper as the audio device, because panning in any of the other modes doesn't pan properly in Dolby Digital.

farss: "I'd love to know how you intend to make them do that and what you'll do if they don't. Voting with your wallet is the only option you have."

You got a point in voting with my wallet. It just happens that I like Vegas quite a lot on other things so I'd rather bring out its weaknesses to try to make it better than just abandon it and move to another NLE.
farss wrote on 6/7/2010, 6:21 AM
'You got a point in voting with my wallet. It just happens that I like Vegas quite a lot on other things so I'd rather bring out its weaknesses to try to make it better than just abandon it and move to another NLE. "

Sure, same here but at some point you've got to accept that you're kicking a dead horse and move on.

If SCS don't know by now they have a serious issue to address then what can one say.
If they know they've got a serious problem and elect to ignore it then they deserve what happens when they loose market share.
If they know they've got a serious problem and cannot afford the R&D to fix it then they have my sympathy but that's how it works in the competitive world. It's been a long time since any of us have paid for an upgrade and I still believe Vegas is too inexpensive to fund the level of engineering required to build a competitive NLE. Adobe are very lucky, they can cross fund development across their suite. Apple are in much the same position and have a huge userbase. Avid are well, Avid.

Bob.
TeetimeNC wrote on 6/7/2010, 6:38 AM
Sebaz, if you haven't already I suggest you submit your test results to SCS. I've found SCS to be pretty responsive to problems I have submitted to them. At the least you will find out from the horse's mouth whether it is a problem they recognize and can duplicate. You're not likely to get that SCS feedback from a post in the forum.

/jerry
kkolbo wrote on 6/7/2010, 6:48 AM
I thought Vegas Pro was professional, so why should it have the capability to process an inferior consumer AVCHD product?

This is a somewhat confused statement. AVC is not an inferior compression. It is in fact a very good compression method. It is unfortunately a very complex one. It compresses nicely to a small file. When played back it looks good, but it did have to loose some information to get small. The point is that it is very difficult to edit.

Because it compresses to a small file or relatively small bitrate, it works nicely for consumer camcorders that need to store on slow or small storage medium. A consumer is also not worried about generational loss that can be considerable.

There are Prosumer AVC camcorders on the market right now. They have gained some acceptance by using high bit rates to get good quality, but they have marginal acceptance so far because the output is difficult to edit. The Panasonics have gotten some acceptance, but I suspect it is because the show it with FCP which transcodes it before edit. Native AVC is difficult to edit because of the complex way it compresses which also gives it the great results. It is just to hard to deal with natively at the moment to get professional acceptance without transcoding.

In the professional realm you will find XDCAM, XDCAM EX, HDV, and a host of other formats. All of these edit nicely in Vegas Pro.

I don't see the phobia folks have with using a digital intermediate if they choose a format for their camera that is difficult to edit. Film has been doing this for years and we did it with HDV until hardware and software solutions could develop more. You make a choice. Easy edit or cheap camera that records to AVC.

Of course you can always use Edius. They are lean and mean and seem to edit it fine.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 6/7/2010, 7:10 AM
That's an example of a helpful reply. Yes, I changed that to Microsoft Sound Mapper and the problem is not as bad, however it still happens. It doesn't happen every single time, but many times it still happens after using JKL.

If it's not happening every time that, odds are, it might not be vegas.

With throughput's being more & more important it could very well be that for what you want you'll need to start looking in to having multiple drives, each with separate videos on them. Or maybe RAID stripping. I'm getting throughput just because you said it's not happening every time.
kkolbo wrote on 6/7/2010, 7:43 AM
With throughput's being more & more important it could very well be that for what you want you'll need to start looking in to having multiple drives, each with separate videos on them. Or maybe RAID stripping. I'm getting throughput just because you said it's not happening every time.

It does sound like a bottle neck somewhere and this advice is a good idea. I would feed it from multiple drives for a quick test. The association with audio sounds like latency issues with the system, particularly USB if you have a USB keyboard or mouse. I had this kind of thing with Blender at one point. Have you set Ram Preview to zero to see if it becomes more responsive?

Cliff Etzel wrote on 6/7/2010, 8:33 AM
kkolbo said:

"...you can always use Edius. They are lean and mean and seem to edit it fine."

Glaring omission I recently discovered about Edius - you're stuck in 8 bit color. There's no other way to get more color bit depth at the present time when grading your footage.

That was a huge black mark for me and it forced me to reassess my use of Edius. Yes, it's spartan and is fast, but at the cost of proper color grading options, it makes sense to me why it's marketed towards those in broadcast.

I'm now researching best post production workflow methods to eek out more from Vegas Pro as a result. The subtle things I've learned have shown me Vegas Pro is a VERY capable post production application - even for more complicated projects.

I agree about conforming to an intermediate - I don't get the resistance to it. As you said, it's been done in film a long time, and it's a proven workflow methodology. I'm currently in film school to learn in greater depth around producing documentary films, and I can say the grading tools in Vegas really show me what it's capable of.

AVCHD is an excellent acquisition format. For those who complain about why they shouldn't have to do it - get over it and transcode to an intermediate and get your work done. Cineform Neo Scene is a cost effective solution that works very well as an intermediate codec and is cross platform with MAC's - as long as you include the player with the archive you're handing off. Otherwise, use another NLE and edit your work on the latest/greatest in post production workstations.

Cliff Etzel
Solo Video Journalist | Micro Documentary Film Maker
bluprojekt | SoloVJ Blog
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Jeff9329 wrote on 6/7/2010, 11:00 AM
In the professional realm you will find XDCAM, XDCAM EX, HDV, and a host of other formats. All of these edit nicely in Vegas Pro.

I dont believe anyone would consider HDV a professional codec. It does edit easily on current CPUs. Side note: when HDV first came out people had the exact same complaints as AVCHD has currently about poor NLE handling and extremely long render times.

The most widely used acquisition format for ENG and short production is DVCPRO HD.


kkolbo wrote on 6/7/2010, 11:27 AM
I dont believe anyone would consider HDV a professional codec.

While XDCAM EX is much better than HDV, most of our local HD stations are using HDV. Budgets have been tight lately. We still have one that is on Beta SP.
jabloomf1230 wrote on 6/7/2010, 11:41 AM
I'm glad to read that a good number of people realize that AVCHD is an excellent acquisition format. The problem with all the H.264-based codecs is not that they don't provide excellent compression (small file sizes and few artifacts). The problem is that all that comes at a cost. That cost is, that decoding and encoding H.264 requires a lot of CPU horsepower.

That situation would also be okay in general (like for a media player program). But considering that in an NLE you are further taxing the CPU by both adding transitions and effects and overlaying multiple clips on a timeline, at some point you have to realize that unless you get a system with faster and more CPU cores, you aren't going to be able to edit H.264 properly. The alternative solution is use an NLE that offloads some of that work to the GPU cores.

At some point in the future, this problem will be forgotten, as the same technological advances will be made in editing H.264 that were made in editing HDV. But probably by then, some people will have moved on to resolutions higher than 1920x1080 combined with 3D.