Subject:New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Posted by: number6nyc

Date:5/4/2010 5:42:58 AM

I've been making MIDI music practically since the spec was invented, which, to you old-timers, wasn't all that long ago (LOL), so I"m anything but new to this stuff. The concept of paint-by-numbers music is also not new, having dabbled in the old mod scene. The challenge, for me anyway, is, I'm doing it without sight. I've got some hardware and software that renders and reads what's on the PC (and, to a certain extent, the Mac as well) screen, but it's not perfect and there are things it just plain cannot do. I figured I'd try the Acid Express edition to see if I could make it work, and, surprisingly, by trial and error and a whole lotta guesswork on my part as to how things are done, there are several things I've been able to do with it so far. With proper zooming, I can draw blocks of clips onto the horizontal grid, I can even draw bits of clips as long as those bits start at the beginning of the clip. I even understand the difference in concepts between draw and paint (single- versus multi-track). Because I can't see, pictures don't mean much, so telling me to look in the manual at the how-to pictures doesn't work. In fact, it's a minor miracle I was able to figure out this whole grid thing at all! (I'm quite pleased with myself, actually, for having done so! LOL!) But now, I want to go further and have many questions.

Firstly, what is an event? Events are discussed a lot in the shortcut keys section of the help file but they don't tell you what an event is.

Second, how do I break up an audio clip and draw, say, only a couple beats from the middle of it onto the grid?

Third, is there any way to do stuff on the grid without using a mouse pointer (or, in my case, a virtual mouse pointer)? I can move around on the grid no problem, between the zooming in and out to change the granularity of the horizontal axis, I can use the go-to dialog to move the cursor to any position on the grid I choose, but when the cursor is repositioned, what does that give me besides a repositioned grid?

Fourth, can I use shortcut keys to do drawing or pasting at cursor position? If so, what exactly can be pasted there?

If you think you can think about this software non-visually and have any suggestions as to how I can proceed, I'd be very interested in hearing from you.

Hey Sony, if you're listening, making this software a little more blind-user-accessible would be a big-mother feather in your cap, so if you have any ideas, please write.

Thanks in advance.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/4/2010 11:22:43 AM

1) Events are instances in which audio (or video) plays back on the timeline. Events are also called "clips".

2) There are several ways of doing this. The best way I can think of is using the Chopper but there are other ways too, like using the Eraser tool to erase the edges of a particular clip (or even drag the edges of the clip inward while using the Pencil tool).

3) You can move the cursor around on the grid using shortcut keys like Page Up and Page Down. (There's a bunch; ACID has a "Keyboard Shortcuts" link under Help on the menu bar.)

4) You can use the Chopper to drop a selection made in the Chopper onto the timeline. (For example, "A" or "/" with a selection made in the Chopper will drop that selection onto the timeline. Again, there are a bunch of shortcuts for these commands right in Help > Keyboard Shortcuts on the menu bar.)

HTH,
Iacobus

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/5/2010 8:10:54 AM

Thanks for your assistance and welcome suggestions. I'm very familiar with the shortcut keys listing. IN fact, I keep a window open with them all the time (LOL). All the things you mentioned, the chopper tool, the pencil tool, can they all be accessed through the shortcuts, or is there (or are there) any function(s) that absolutely require the mouse, and if so, which ones? Those are the ones on which I must concentrate to learn. If only some of the things that are represented by lines on the grid could also have the raw numbers displayed. There are many instances of this already, but just a few are lacking, like when dragging through the grid, I can't always tell until I play back what I've dragged in there just how much I dragged (or not). But that's a minor point at this moment. I'll keep at it and try and have some more positive progress to report over the next day or so. Thanks again.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/5/2010 10:04:51 AM

Yes, a lot of the tools like the Draw tool (I called it the Pencil tool for some reason...which might have been because of Paint Shop Pro, which I use for image editing; ignore what I said before) and the Chopper can be accessed via shortcuts.

For example, to choose the Draw tool, it's Ctrl + D. For the Chopper, it's Alt + 2. (If the Chopper is already open, focus will shift to the Chopper.)

There's no way that I know of that would allow you to use the keyboard to draw clips or events on the timeline unless you use the technique I described before with the Chopper.

If you paint using the Paint tool (no shortcut unfortunately but you can cycle forward in the tools using D and Shift + D to cycle backward), you can paint a clip in its entirety by holding down Ctrl + clicking on the timeline.

Microsoft has information on people with impairments here if you haven't checked it out already, including links to companies that specialize in the assistive tech field.

HTH,
Iacobus

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/7/2010 2:46:44 PM

OK, now about that chopper -- I've gone and bought the full version (the Express version disallows use of the chopper) so now I gots more questions! Well maybe only two. Whilst focused in the chopper window, how do I locate the portion of the audio I want to mark, then cut for pasting into my track? And do I paste this chopped-out piece onto the same track or a new one? For instance, I want to create a stuttering effect with a drum beat (or anything). Mouse required? I hope not, but if so, I'll just have to master that, too.

Re the Microsoft link you cited, well unfortunately that's mega old news, and that only covers very basic things as long as they're text-based. While Acid and Sound Forge are clearly not text based, they go a long way toward providing textual information about objects on which they operate, like clip length, position, etc. Acid's a little shy in this regard, but it may be doable. Will let you know how I proceed, but any assistance re chopper greatly appreciated.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/9/2010 10:59:21 AM

You can right-click on the waveform within the Chopper window and select a specific length (like by measure or quarter note, etc.). From this same context menu you can also double or halve the selection (the respective keyboard shortcuts are ' and ; (that's apostrophe and semicolon).

You can mouseover the buttons in the upper right of the Chopper window. They should tell you the keyboard shortcuts in parentheses. (Like A to insert the selection onto the timeline.) You can definitely create a stuttering effect using only keyboard shortcuts.

One important thing: You should choose where you want the chopped selection to appear on the timeline. (You do also have the option of chopping to a new track using the context menu mentioned previously.)

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/9/2010 1:00:47 PM

OK, now we're going places! Riddle me this, then: Suppose I have a two-measure beat that I want to paste (or draw, if you will) four times, starting at measure 1, resulting in eight measures. With shortcuts, how do I do that? I thought I'd figured it out, I thought you just press the insert clip shortcut at cursor position 1:1, but that didn't work. That done, now I've gone to the chopper window and chopped up what I want, it's ready to paste. Can I just move to the position where I want it pasted, like 8:3, and paste (not insert) it right there? Also, about deleting segments--is it relatively easy to delete portions without having to highlight them with a mouse first, and when they are deleted, do the following bars move left to take the place of what was deleted? I'm hoping not.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/10/2010 10:53:29 AM

In its most basic form:

Select part in the Chopper in question. Press Ctrl + C to copy. Place the cursor on the timeline where you want to paste. Press Ctrl + B. A dialog window will pop up. By default, the "paste spacing" option is "end to end." Select how many times you want to paste and click OK.

By default, ripple edits are not on but if they are, you can toggle them using Ctrl + L. (You can, of course, tell when they're on when you delete an event between two other events and those events close up.)

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/10/2010 8:54:43 PM

OK, major correction--I was wondering what the difference between CTRL/V-Victor and CTRL/B-Bravo was! Will try that next.

Now, I have another, and probably the last, major question, and it's about the dangerous topic of cursor/mouse positioning. I'm not always sure when my cursor is where it's supposed to be. To wit, I've only been able to make a selection in the chopper window once--every time since, I just can't find the darn thing! My screenreader software has the happy ability (happy for me anyway) of telling me what color pixel by pixel the cursor or mouse is on. Are the areas where the clips are located color in white and blue, or what?

Oh yes, one more small q., when I'm in the chopper and I've got my clip chopped to the spec I want, how do I select that for copying to the clipboard? Just hold down the shift key and move the right arrow? Or is whatever is in the chopper window automatically selected anyway, and all I have to do is copy it without playing around with its selection?

Hopefully next post, SUCCESS!

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/12/2010 8:27:19 AM

The background of unselected clips is white; the waveform itself is colored based on the track's assigned color (out of a possible eight colors). When a clip is selected on the timeline, the background of the clip changes to the track's assigned color, with the waveform changing to a lighter shade of that color.

Colors are assigned as tracks are added to the project. (For example, the first track is a blue color, the second maroon, the third teal and so on.) These can all be changed, of course, by right-clicking the track in the track list, choosing "Color" and then a color.

You can copy a selection made in the Chopper by pressing Ctrl + C. You can then use either the standard paste method (Ctrl + V) or paste repeat (Ctrl + B).

You can also simply place the selection made in the Chopper onto the timeline by pressing A or / (that's a forward slash) on your keyboard. (Just make sure the cursor is where you want it on the timeline beforehand.)

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/13/2010 8:13:38 AM

All right, making progress in baby steps, but at least it's progress. I absolutely cannot figure out how to do two things, and when I do, I'm probably off to the races.

1. How is the same clip pasted backp-to-back on a track? Ex.: A drump loop runs for two measures. I want eight occurrences of it (totaling 16 measures). "Y" pastes at cursor. None of the insert functions will move the first paste over so the new one can fit in. DO I actually have to draw this?

2. In the chopper window, I have a clip all nicely selected, ready to cut and paste elsewhere. I can press the space bar and hear my chop played as a loop, exactly as I set it up to do. How do I select the chopped thing for copying/pasting elsewhere? None of the selection methods in the Edit menu are available. I can't trim the ends off, I can't do anything with it.

3. (Oops, I lied--three questions.) If I have a long portion of a track and I want to delete a few beats so another track with something else gets to fire at that point, do I just drop a beginning and end marker where I want them and delete what's between them to mute that range? Or, if, as in word processing, if I delete something, will that stuff which comes afterward automatically jump back into the position where I just deleted? Ex., I want to mute out or delete the last two beats in measure 4 (4:3, 4:4, or, 4:3 to 5:1). If I have something going on at 5:1 and I drop in and out markers at 4:3 and 5:1, then delete that marked area, will the stuff at 5:1 stay there, or will it jump back and fill in position 4:3?

If I can get my head and screenreader around these three questions, I won't be back with more for quite some time, because with this knowledge, I can actually use the product and make something out of it.

Thanks, as always. You've been very patient, and I appreciate that more than you know.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: BudWzr

Date:5/13/2010 8:49:00 AM

To copy a clip, drag with the right mouse button and when you release it a menu will appear.

From the chopper, use the insert button. It looks like a big "play" arrow.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/13/2010 9:31:46 AM

1. As soon as you copy the specific part, use Ctrl + B using the "end to end" option. Specify how many copies you want in the same dialog. It will paste the copied clip (or part of the copied clip) from end to end that many times.

(Be sure that you place the cursor on the timeline where you want it to be beforehand.)

2. The Chopper itself has its copy function separate from the main workspace but the rule is the same: Press Ctrl + C to copy that part of the clip to the clipboard. You can then use the "paste repeat" function as mentioned above.

3. You certainly could, but make sure you turn Ripple Edits on (Ctrl + L) and you use the Time Selection Tool in addition to marking where you want the edit to happen.

For example, mark in where you want the edit to begin, then mark out where you want it to end. Then, with the Time Selection Tool active, double-click between the two markers. The Loop Region should "snap" between these two markers. Press delete. That part of the clip/event should be deleted and then close up.

Be absolutely sure that the clip you want to edit is chosen as you might select an entire range of clips that will be ripple edited otherwise.

You're welcome! :D

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/13/2010 6:56:37 PM

No no, somehow I'm not being clear enough because you're telling me much the same thing about some things and not quite enough about others. Let me try again.

1. In the chopper window, I've isolated a beat I want to pull out and paste repetitively--you know, to create that wonderful stuttering effect we all know and love (LOL). I've got how to do that down to a pseudo-science. I can fix it so that when I'm in the chopper window and press play, I get the rata-tata-tata-tata sound I want, no prob. Now, focusing (mentally, not visually) on that little bit which is now set up in the chopper, how do I select that little sixteenth-note bit and prepare it for pasting above? When I use the Edit menu, the copy and cut functions are grayed out, which presumably means I have nothing selected. Not even the "Select all" is available, nor are the trimp/crop functions, whatever they're called. All I want to do is grab that little sixteenth-note of fun (;g) and paste it in on the above audio track at the desired cursor position. ^C and ^B don't cut anything.

2. Successful regarding cutting, but what if I don't want the stuff to the right to move over?

3. Also, did I miss something, or did you answer how to paste the same audio clip multiple times or fill out a track with the designated clip?

Thanks again. This is painful, but I know I'll get it.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/17/2010 11:22:13 AM

1. The Chopper must have focus in order for do a standard copy command (using Ctrl + C. You cannot use the Edit > Copy command on the menu bar).

(You do not use the Shift key; you use the Control or "Ctrl" key.)

You can then do whatever you want with it once it's copied from the Chopper window, including using the paste repeat command.

2. Turn off Ripple Edits if you don't want anything to "close in".

3. Yes. Use the "paste repeat" command to paste the same event/clip multiple times.

You're welcome. :D

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: runman

Date:5/17/2010 5:06:37 PM

Excuse me for butting in, but just have to say, I'm in awe at you number6nyc, of all the things to do when blind...a DAW. But I can only imagine that when you have worked it out, and you actually get a piece of music together, the feeling must be extremely good.

And I tip my hat at you also mD, good work (as always) man.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/18/2010 7:02:17 AM

Ha! I'm 56 years old. If I told you half the things I've done in my life fully and completely without sight, I think I'd have you shaking your head in either wonderment or thinking I was three-quarters crazy. Suffice it to say that there ain't nothin' holdin' me down but the change in my pocket (LOL). Under direction, I've flown a plane, climbed a mountain, helped birth more than one kind of farm animal, been in music competitions, held my own classical recital, had two thirteen-year careers in information technology in the high-pressure government securities banking industry, produced numerous Internet audio programs on how to help other blind people do things, ran an Internet radio station for ten years, kayaked and white-water-rafter with friends (although admittedly the white-water probably wasn't quite as dangerous as it might have been were I not along, but at least I had the experience), caught fish for dinner when no one else could feel the pull on the line, made fire by rubbing two sticks together because my friend forgot the damn waterproof matches--that's a story in and of itself--I just jump in wherever two hands are needed and don't worry much about whether I can see what I'm doing or not (LOL). Now, I'm semi-retired and wanna make beats, and I'm hell-bound to find the software that's accessible and will help me do it (LOL). MD's been great, as have others, but there's just that eeny-beeny-teeny-weeny gap in my knowledge of how this thing behaves and how to get my speech software to properly tell me what's going on that I'm missing, and it all has to do with the chopper window. Once I get that going, and can put something together, you betcha I'll upload it here for all to hear.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/18/2010 7:13:06 AM

OK, on item #1, I've been using the CTRL/C key sequence for copying, but when I CTRL/B paste it into my track above, I either get a click or dead silence, which leads me to believe I've not got anything selected. The funny part is, I can locate the beat (or sonic event) I want, right-click on it, and, using the selection menu, select a sixteenth-note, which is what I want, then press the space bar to play that sixteenth note over and over, getting the stutter effect I want. I'm figuring tat this point that the sixteenth-note in question is selected and ready for copying. A sighted person even tells me that there are arrows pointing to the little slice of sound on the screen, which further reinforces selection in my book. But I press the darn CTRL/C, go back to the main track window, move to the place where I want the noise pasted, press CTRL/B, specify I want it pasted eight times, end-to-end, click OK, and it just plain fails.. Bummer. I tell ya, I wish one of you great guys could do a LogMeIn session with me to watch what I'm doing. LogMeIn combined with Skype maybe for audio/video?

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/18/2010 9:29:09 AM

Houston, we have a problem. xD

I just tried doing a copy operation in the Chopper and then pasting using either the standard paste command or the paste repeat command. The clip/event gets pasted but there's no waveform data inside; it's blank.

I thought I was going crazy because this was working the other day.

However, I saved and closed the project and then re-opened the project. The clips that I copied from the Chopper had the waveform data. : /

I'll have to post this in the forum to see if anyone can reproduce.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/18/2010 9:34:10 AM

Well holy spit! I found a bug! Wudda ya know! I thought I was going stark raving loonie! I take great pains to follow directions as they are given so I don't have to come back and ask again--that's annoying--but wow, you reproduced my problem exactamundo! I eagerly await further replies. Which forum did you post this in? I'll go there and follow the thread.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/18/2010 9:37:45 AM

Back out in the main "ACID Product Family" forum.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/19/2010 2:09:12 PM

I opened up an official service ticket and wrote in it that this is becoming a topic on at least one forum. We shall see what happens.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/20/2010 3:28:28 AM

I got a response back from my technical support ticket I opened just last night. Apparently this is a known problem and Sony is "working on a timely resolution..." Yeah yeah yeah, gimmy a shovel, I know that song by heart guys. I understand that not everything gets super-tested in betas and pre-release quality assurance testing, but why does it always have to be the feature somebody somewhere needs most??? AAAAARRRRRRRRRRG! So, I sit and wait, and I got a $300 piece of software I can't fully use. I'm looking, if you'll pardon the xpression, into work-arounds, like rendering the chop to a new clip and pasting it multiple times on its own track, but I can't even get that to work right, so I may have found another little--er--problem. If somebody could explain if it's possible to do so, how to paste a track's own clip multiple times? The example I gave was, take a four-bar clip--or, what the heck--a sixteenth-note clip for that matter--and tell me how to paste it several times next to each other on the grid line for that track. While it won't be pretty, it'll be a work-around until sunny Sony fixes their pestiferous problem and squashes that beasty-bug.

And oh by the way, something else I should've asked and maybe I will, what other "known problems" are there in 7.0E Build 713? One wonders.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/20/2010 9:19:18 AM

I got a customer satisfaction survey thing back from Sony regarding my technical support incident. Since they could not suggest a work-around, or even offer me an older version that might not have the problem I'm having, since they basically had nothing for me except to wait, I failed them on the survey on the two questions they asked. Still hoping for a fast fix or reasonable work-around, but I suspect it'll be a while.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/20/2010 12:21:28 PM

I would suggest working on the timeline itself until the issue gets (hopefully) resolved.

Paint or draw the clip, then copy the clip, then use the "paste repeat" command as mentioned before.

With an application this big and feature-rich, it's not surprising to find bugs here and there. I actually didn't find the Chopper bug until I was trying to help you out.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: number6nyc

Date:5/20/2010 3:33:49 PM

Since I have no idea where my mouse pointer is in relation to the start or end of said clip, how would I paint or draw it? Second, if the copy function is what's not working, how would I copy it?

Re surprise (or not) of things not working, that's not what's irking me. Stuff happens. I'm a programmer, too, and once in a while, something does fall through the cracks. It's the lackadaisical attitude of the corporate response "Yeah, we know it's a problem, engineering is working on it and it may be fixed in a future release" is what bothers me. If they had said "We plan on fixing this for the next release," I'd be happy at least knowing that it *was* going to be fixed. Now, I'm still stuck, and, frankly, unable to operate the software in even a similar manner to mouse-users without this function working. Friends of mine in other fora are convincing me to go tbac to Sonar and RXP. While I wait for this to be fixed, I just might.

Subject:RE: New Acid User with Questions and a Challenge

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:5/23/2010 9:18:55 AM

You would have to click and drag onto the timeline to paint or draw.

Once it's drawn on the timline, you'd select it on the timeline (by clicking it), then use the copy command. (The timeline's copy command is separate from the one available in the Chopper.)

If it's imperative you get those projects done by all means do so.