Subject:Some Basic Features Missing?

Posted by: Adji

Date:1/16/2010 2:14:03 PM

Hey there, I was just wondering if you could explain to me why some REALLY basic features of DAWs appear to be missing and if they will be included in future versions / updates?
Okay, I have used ACID since Pro 6 (about three years ago maybe) and have Pro 7 now. For a while it has been great but I am starting to envy some other DAWs that have seemingly very basic features included. Some of these features are preventing me from doing what I want to do, and thus I am considering switching to another DAW, which I don't really want to do as I have gotten so use to ACID. I have tried e-mailling Sony these questions but as per usual the customer service is pretty poor. (I actually find this with most areas of Sony and I have been a loyal sony customer for quite a few years, everything from Hi-Fis, TVs, and even this laptop I am typing on).

Anyway, I digress...

MIDI
Why can we not have those little velocity bars at the bottom of out piano roll editor that I see in every other DAW? This would make it considerably easier to alter the dynamics and velocities of MIDI parts and thus make my drum tracks and piano tracks a LOT more realistic. It seems like a VERY simple feature to implement?
Here is a picture of what I mean = http://www.firepixie.com/CUBASE_DRUM_EDITOR.JPG

Why can we not add effects to MIDI tracks? I know we can add them to the instrument but this is no good when I am using say 8 outputs from ARIA. I do not want to have to add EIGHT instances of ARIA (which would probably cripple my PC) just so I can EQ two violins a little differently?

MIXER
I really like the new mixer in 7, its way better than what we had in 6 but it still lacks a certain, something. I don't know, it is just really un-inspiring to look at.

SKINNING
I mentioned this before, and a lot of people flamed me for it, but why can't we have a couple of different skins? If we have different skins it could actually IMPROVE work flow because we are looking at something we want to look at, no offence but ACID is pretty ugly haha. Also it would be great to have different skins for different genres of music we are working on, it can really put you in the mood to record different types of music depending on what colour or whatever you are looking at. Again another pretty simple feature I would imagine that DAWs like Sonar have had for a looooong time.

I feel that because of the lack of basic features this is the reason that Sony ACID Pro is looked down upon by pretty much everybody I meet, heck it is not even covered in some of the top magazines. I NEVER have seen an article on ACID in 2 years worth of Music Tech Magazine and Sound On Sound, except a short review in both when ACID 7 was released.

It just feels strange that with Sound Forge being a HUGELY respected and used programme that ACID cannot live up to the name, real shame. I feel like the only reason I am still using ACID is because I am frightened of re-learning a whole new DAW all over again, though I think it may be time that I might just have to suck it up and move on?

If someone could PLEASE take the time to answer some of my concerns I would be very grateful, as it seems my e-mail attempts are futile.

Adam

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:1/16/2010 4:27:18 PM

Velocity bars: do you mean these?
http://www.chienworks.com/media/acid-velocity_bars.png

Midi track effects: do you mean this?
http://www.chienworks.com/media/acid-midi_effects.png

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:1/16/2010 6:53:21 PM

adji:
If you want a real daw, try Sonar.
Second, you cannot put eq on a MIDI track. MIDI is digital, eq is analog (even though it's bits and bytes inside the computer).
jack

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:1/16/2010 7:49:54 PM

True enough. However you could insert an bus, route the midi track to the bus, then assign any effect to that bus.

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Adji

Date:1/17/2010 7:51:37 AM

ChienWorks, that looks like what I am looking for! Where the hell are those? I do not get those bars up along the bottom? I cannot believe this! haha, If I known this had existed it could have saved me MONTHS of work in the past. Please tell me how to get them on the screen?

As for the FX it does not show up on my screen either. Where your FX button is I have a MIDI Freeze one?

I must apologise if I have simply overlooked these features. I feel a bit of a tail now.

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:1/17/2010 8:20:20 AM

You have to go into the clip properties window to see the velocity bars illustrated in my picture. What's bizarre is that you can't easily get to clip properties if you have inline midi editing enabled. Select the clip you want to edit and press G to turn off inline editing. Right-mouse-button click in the clip and choose clip properties.

Unfortunately the bars are very narrow and all the notes that start at the same time overlap their bars on top of each other. It's not very easy to use, but it does exist.

For effects right-mouse-button click in the header and map the output to a bus track. These show up in the lower right corner of the screen by default, though you can and may have moved them elsewhere. The bus track sums all timeline tracks sent to it and allows standard audio effects chains to be applied. If you want a different effect on each midi track then assign each one to it's own bus.

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Rockitglider

Date:1/17/2010 9:33:27 AM

Hello,

Another feature needed is assigning controls to vsti plug-ins. I really need this and was waiting for this update hoping it would be in there. I'm disappointed.

Example: Assigning effects pedal to VSTi plug-in for Wah Wah pedal in Guitar Rig, or any other Amp Plug.

Rockitglider

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Adji

Date:1/17/2010 10:32:25 AM

Chienworks, thanks very much for the help man, I will try those things out you suggested.

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:1/19/2010 4:36:54 AM

I don't use GR in Acid but I do in Sonar as well as standalone. In either case, if you want to assign a MIDI control to something like the wahwah effect, right click on the effect and select MIDI learn and then activate the controller you want to use. This of course assumes your controller sends MIDI messages. adly GR doesn't retain the MIDI learn when you close down the plug. You have to re-learn it every time you open the plug.

Jack

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/22/2010 8:22:10 AM

Why can we not have those little velocity bars at the bottom of out piano roll editor that I see in every other DAW?

The in-line MIDI editing Velocity controls don't work how you want? This provides you very fine level control.

Have you tried the Velocity filter to manipulate velocities of the notes.

Why can we not add effects to MIDI tracks? I know we can add them to the instrument but this is no good when I am using say 8 outputs from ARIA. I do not want to have to add EIGHT instances of ARIA (which would probably cripple my PC) just so I can EQ two violins a little differently?

You cannot apply audio FX (DX or VST) to MIDI tracks since MIDI tracks don't stream audio, but MIDI to soft-synths.

The only way to add FX to a MIDI track is to add them to the soft-synth bus insert or by using a send from the soft-synth bus to an Assignable FX.

With ARIA specifically, you can not externally affect the different channels. ARIA sends all MIDI data rendered to audio through a single bus. You should have no problem loading multiple copies of ARIA into ACID so you can affect each voicing independentely. ACID 7.0c introduced a multi-threaded soft-synth engine to permit such behavior.

With instruments like the Kit Core, you can create sub busses as Kit Core exposes multiple busses. You can then configure Kit Core to route specific sounds to specific busses. Each bus can then be independently processed using different audio FX.

I really like the new mixer in 7, its way better than what we had in 6 but it still lacks a certain, something. I don't know, it is just really un-inspiring to look at.

What would make it more "inspiring" to look at?

feel that because of the lack of basic features this is the reason that Sony ACID Pro is looked down upon by pretty much everybody I meet,

I will disagree that ACID is looked down upon. I just got back from NAMM and I had many users tell me how much they love ACID's work flow.

One of the presenters we had at NAMM - Jason Gleed - uses ACID to score for the Chipmunk movies, mix Hanna Montana, and many commercial spots. He is able to do anything he wants with in ACID and has never found ACID limiting to his work or workflow. I was absolutely amazed at how fast he works. His peers in the industry are always asking him how he gets the results he does. He goes directly from ACID to the final mix in the studio. When I talked in depth about what he believes is missing from ACID, he could not identify any specific areas. Of course, his work flow may not be your desired workflow, but his results and work results are pretty significant.

As always, I am wide open to suggestions for improvements.

Peter

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Adji

Date:1/23/2010 6:46:58 AM

Hey man, it sounded like you took offence a little to what I said, sorry If I came across a little harshly.

The velocity bars, I did not know these existed until someone else on the forum told me how to access them. (I did search through the manual but I hate those manuals on screen, they are hard for me to work).

That is cool about that producer you mentioned, glad that some pros are still using ACID, perhaps it is just over here in the UK where ACID gets no recognition. Like I said I have not once seen an article on it in the major 'studio' magazines that I read over here, and when I request articles or whatever on them I get snubbed out.

About the mixer: I am not sure what to suggest, but it just seems uninspiring? I think it could be the whole 'skin' issue as a whole, which you did not respond to? Was this accidental or do you guys have no intention of ever adding this kind of feature?

Thanks for the response.

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/23/2010 9:30:35 AM

Hey man, it sounded like you took offence a little to what I said, sorry If I came across a little harshly.

Not offended at all. Just trying to answer your concerns.

The velocity bars, I did not know these existed until someone else on the forum told me how to access them. (I did search through the manual but I hate those manuals on screen, they are hard for me to work).

So you don't like the in-line editing mode Velocity controls? You prefer the Piano Roll's Velocity regions? I'd be interested in why.

I would suggest you sit down sometime, print out the ACID users manual PDF, and really poor over it. You will be surprised at the functionality that does exist in ACID. In my 13 years of working on ACID, I still get users telling me they never knew ACID could do this or that, when it fact it has for a very long time.


ACID has a large following amongst producers. I'd say working producers is our largest base of users. We try to address a wide range of users, but we don't play the bullet item wars. Never have.

WRT to articles: I have seen at least 4 articles in the British Mags over the last year on ACID being used by producers, musicians, and DJ/VJ types. The reviews we get from SOS and the like are always postive and recieve very high rankings, subjective as they can be.

Yes we are missing features that other hosts have, but I honestly don't believe that those missing features prevent ACID from being a great tool to produce music, whether it be for producers doing post work or working on compositions. There is no such thing as a perfect tool in my mind. There will always be something that the other guys do that we don't, and things we do that they don't. Better is subjective.

WRT skins: Something we have looked at and even added options in Vegas 9. However skins don't add functionality. I would more likely focus on things that are missing - like MIDI control of VST FX - than skins.


Peter

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Rockitglider

Date:1/23/2010 11:00:26 AM

Quote: I don't use GR in Acid but I do in Sonar as well as standalone. In either case, if you want to assign a MIDI control to something like the wahwah effect, right click on the effect and select MIDI learn and then activate the controller you want to use. This of course assumes your controller sends MIDI messages. adly GR doesn't retain the MIDI learn when you close down the plug. You have to re-learn it every time you open the plug.
Jack

I know I can do this, I use it in FLStudio, and Sonar, but can't use it or any other controllable plug-in in Acid P7. I think this is a very important feature to be added and it's not just because I want it, it's a very common feature at this point in time.

See ya, Rockitglider

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/23/2010 12:50:36 PM

I know I can do this, I use it in FLStudio, and Sonar, but can't use it or any other controllable plug-in in Acid P7. I think this is a very important feature to be added and it's not just because I want it, it's a very common feature at this point in time.

I am not arguing that it is not important for particular workflows.

I know what you want. It will be discussed for a future version.

Peter

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:1/25/2010 8:43:51 AM

> So you don't like the in-line editing mode Velocity controls? You prefer the Piano Roll's Velocity regions? I'd be interested in why.

From what I just read, it seems like he just found out about the ones in the Piano Roll from Chienworks in this thread and doesn't even know about the ones in the in-line MIDI editor.

It would probably help Adji out of we told him to press the F key while in the in-line MIDI editor so he can see the velocity controls for himself. (I bet he has a smile from ear-to-ear when he sees them appear). ;-)

Like Peter said, ACID has a whole bunch of features that people don't realize are even there.

~jr

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: raskiefilm

Date:1/25/2010 12:39:52 PM

@ SonyPCH:

Do you know if Jason's work flow consist of MIDI editing and composition?

"He is able to do anything he wants with in ACID and has never found ACID limiting to his work or workflow."
This is exactly how I feel with Acid when I was using wavs of my own and loops. But now as I am expanding with MIDI production, I feel that ACID is limiting. I'm sure it's my knowledge with both Applications (ACID and MIDI). Jeffrey Fischer wrote a book on ACID and it had one very small chapter on MIDI. I would love to learn more with ACID and MIDI but I don't now where to go and Sony hasn't really offered tutorials, etc.

Any suggestions? I really like using ACID and have composed some amazing work on it but I want to take it next step and unlock the full potential of ACID (if that is possible).

I'm happy to submit hardware and software that I'm currently using in order to get suggestion or at least be pointed in the right direction.

Update: The last manual I printed was for Acid 6 and it help me get rolling on MIDI but it still seemed lacking. Perhaps I should print out the Acid 7 and see what it entails.

My basic need is to utilize a MIDI-capable keyboard and my MIDI drum kit that can access any soft-synth and record what I play in real time and later let me edit/quantize the tracks.

Thanks for the listen!
raskiefilm

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/25/2010 3:27:38 PM

Do you know if Jason's work flow consist of MIDI editing and composition?

Loops; One Shots; MIDI. Jason does what is needed on a particular project. From the demos he gave, it really depends on the project at hand.

But now as I am expanding with MIDI production, I feel that ACID is limiting

This is tough to reply to.

Why does it 'feel' limiting?

What do you want to do?

My basic need is to utilize a MIDI-capable keyboard and my MIDI drum kit that can access any soft-synth and record what I play in real time and later let me edit/quantize the tracks.

ACID does all of this. In fact you can quantize as you record - though I personally hate that. Good for drums and such, but even then I'd rather try to get it right and then maybe quantize it a bit after to give it a bit of swing or groove.

Peter

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: raskiefilm

Date:1/26/2010 6:56:20 AM

@ SonyPCH

"Why does it 'feel' limiting?"

I will circle with this with this dilemma after I read the ACID Pro 7 Manual. I'm sure I'm limiting myself with what ACID is capable of.

"What do you want to do?"

Utilize/maximize the VSTis I have. The juice and creativity are flowing but I don't fully understand how to get that creativity properly on the ACID time line. ie. I can tweak and manipulate a wav/loop once it's on the track. I really have no idea what ACID can do to a MIDI track once it is on the time line. I would rather know what ACID is capable of versus experimenting.

One of the issues I have is recording MIDI properly. Again, I will read the updated ACID Pro 7 manual and see if this is addressed for me. If not, I'll post here again for help and suggestions.

Thank you for the reply. And if you have any suggestions regarding tutorials or learning more about ACID, I'm all ears.

raskiefilm

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:1/27/2010 11:11:37 AM

The only thing I find "limiting" as far as MIDI goes are the soft synths themselves due to the way some handle how MIDI input/output is configured. Some are so easy to configure while others are a bit clunky.

Remember when ACID's only MIDI feature was to be able to use sync/MTC? Yeah. ;D

Iacobus

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: kitekrazee

Date:2/1/2010 3:45:34 PM

It would be nice with better access to the piano roll. In Sonar you click the midi file and it takes you to the piano roll. In FL it's pressing F7.

I would like to see Acid go more in the direction of a sequencer instead of it looked as a looper. This product is so close to being a great sequencer that could rival Sonar and Cubase.

I've used Sonar for a long time but I get sick of a cluttered GUI

I love how the GUI is similiar between Sony products.

I know some people like their apps to be great eye candy but I love the simplicity of the interface in Acid. Please don't change that.

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/2/2010 7:26:53 AM

It would be nice with better access to the piano roll. In Sonar you click the midi file and it takes you to the piano roll. In FL it's pressing F7.

Hitting "g" puts you into - and out of - the inline piano roll mode. This gives you direct access to editing your time line MIDI.

Peter

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:2/7/2010 7:20:32 PM

To add my 2c:

Re the whole "uninspiring mixer" and "skins" thing - one of the things I really like about Acid and Sound Forge is Sony's refusal to stuff up the basic Windows GUI by introducing a photo-realistic environment.

It took me years to learn Cubase's proprietary non-intuitive interface - and then they changed it! At least Acid is consistent from version to version, and it doesn't waste precious RAM with fancy graphics.

It's the same with some of the high-end plug-in emulations of vintage EQs and compressors - they look gorgeous, but if they had a basic Windows interface (like the Sony plug-ins) would your ears be able to tell the difference?

Yes, there are a few basic features missing from Acid - a tempo map is the major one I would like - but let's not waste developer time on fantasy elements.

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:2/8/2010 5:44:21 AM

a tempo map is the major one I would like...

ACID has a tempo map. Always has. Pro 7 introduced the ability to keyframe transitions.

Perhaps you definition of "map" is different?

Peter

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:2/8/2010 10:56:05 AM

jumbuk said:

"Re the whole "uninspiring mixer" and "skins" thing - one of the things I really like about Acid and Sound Forge is Sony's refusal to stuff up the basic Windows GUI by introducing a photo-realistic environment."

This.

Subject:RE: Some Basic Features Missing?

Reply by: bacHelorHerd

Date:2/17/2010 8:40:54 PM

How about a MIDI note transpose function?

Say you want to select some notes, but not all of them, and you want to shift them a few semitones. You'd have to use the mouse to move them in the inline MIDI editor! There's no way from guarding an accidental move horizontally, though.

I know an entire MIDI clip could be transposed like an audio clip. But I'm saying how to transpose a couple of selected MIDI notes within the MIDI clip. :)

Something else related to this: the keystroke macro mechanism of ACID Pro really stinks! It's not even possible to assign a keystroke to the "Render audio in Real Time" function. I have to include its icon in the toolbar, but I would much rather press a keyboard combination.

In ACID Pro 6, I was able to change the key that toggles display of the MIDI velocity handles from [F] to [F10]. Now in version 7, it refuses to let me change it; it keeps waking up the menu bar!

You see, I've used REAPER as well; in that program, I have the MIDI editor set up, so I could select some MIDI notes, then press [CTRL][up] or [CTRL][down] to transpose by semitones, or [CTRL][pgup] or [CTRL][pgdn] to transpose by octaves.

Please tell me if I'm missing something from this. Otherwise, I'm just replying to the topic... and it's something I could really use with ACID Pro, because otherwise it's a great program. :D