Subject:How do I increase overall levels?!!

Posted by: Voltron jr.

Date:9/21/2009 4:42:51 AM

I'm fairlly new at this so please forgive my ignorance. After I mix in Acid 7 and get all my levels right(I think)-individual track levels at about -2db and the master channel at about 0db or 1db, I then render it as a wave file. I then use Sound Forge 10(trial version..wanted to try it out first). I used the normalizer to boost the overall signal as well as waver hammer. But when I burn to cd and compare to other pro cd's it sound REALLY horrible with low levels. Any tips on how I can boost my signal while avoiding clipping? Thanks in advance

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:9/21/2009 4:58:25 AM

Keep in mind that most commercial cd's produced in the last few years have been over-compressed to the point of having no dynamic range at all. That's not a good thing. Rather than striving for a loud cd of music, you want something with dynamic range (plenty of variation between low and high volume.

You don't want to go over 0dBfs. Ideally you'd want no more than -1dB There's no need to use both the normalizer and Wave Hammer. If you really need to move your levels up (or down) just use the normalizer and watch what level you normalize to. What you want to see in the meters in Soundforge is a peak level of no more than -1dB to -.5dB with plenty of variations in the levels. Want something to sound REALLY HORRIBLE? Over-compress the living daylights out of your stuff. Take a listen to the latest cd from Metallica - the levels and compression are way overdone, and that was done on the order of Lars (Metallica's drummer).

Jack

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: Voltron jr.

Date:9/21/2009 5:16:58 AM

Thanks for the help I really appreciate it. So if in the mixing proccess I keep my levels from clipping: Track levels at -1db or -3db and master channel at 0db I assume that preserves some dynamic range. Then when in Sound Forge you say -1db to -5db is o.k.? Will that cause clipping? I'm just saying.....I always thought seeing red was o.k. on individual tracks(-1db to -3db) in the mixing proccess and nowhere else. Are you saying that seeing red is o.k. while mastering. Ugg!

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:9/21/2009 11:39:46 AM

Seeing red is never ok anywhere, at any step of the process. That may be where your "horrible" sound is coming from. If any individual channel goes over 0dB it's clipped and distorted. Generally each channel should be set to 3dB x (maximum number of active tracks) below 0dB. So if you have at most 5 active tracks at any given time, then all the tracks should start somewhere around -15dB. This makes sure you have enough headroom to keep the mix from clipping.

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:9/22/2009 1:54:35 PM

Voltron:
If you re-read my post you'll see I talk about peak levels, not a constant level of -1 to -.5 (that's 1/2 dB) dB, and preferably lower than that. With digital you don't have the noise problems you'd have with older analog gear so you don't need high signal levels. Ideally you'd like to not see any red at any part of the process, whether tracking or mixing or mastering, but as long as you only have the occasional peak of -1dB you'll be okay.

Besides, having constant high levels like you'd have with too much compression or volume maximizing is tiring to listen to.

Jack

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: jej

Date:9/24/2009 6:13:56 PM

I haven't read all the posts; acouple statistics to consider...

1). Your peaks should be less than -0.5db. I read once that some D/A converters can still allow peaks to clip even thought the source is below 0. This will also help if you are ever converting to an mp3 format as that conversion process can sometimes drive the peaks higher and clip.

2). Look at your RMS of your material this is often were the perception of loudness can come from; also if you like a particular album/song that is out today that is "loud", rip it into Sound Forge and analyze the peaks and RMS; the difference is part of that dynamic range that people discuss. There are industry standards, as I understand it, for different material; movies especially, music is all over the map.

3). I have read, heard some people say that they target an RMS of -20db and peaks around -6db to allow for clip free playback and the greatest dynamic range.... if you play this material vs newer material; there is often a significant difference, especially if you are playing a playlist or CD in a changer.....I often notice that new material is mix/mastered at levels around -12db sometime even higher..... if played through a system loud sometimes this compressed material can sound very cool if the mix is right... others like the 14db of range and just turn the volume up more......

4). Watch out if your compressing things a lot at the mastering stage.... it can often have significant effect on the perception of the original mix where you might find your self wanting to go back to adjust a particular instrument because it is getting lost when everything is squashed......

5) Limiters and compressors are what most people used along with mic techniques to get the RMS higher.

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: kbruff

Date:9/25/2009 12:42:17 PM

google is your friend...
bob katz the art of mastering
izotope ozone
roger nichols digital - Inspector XL
har-bal

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: Voltron jr.

Date:10/4/2009 10:21:51 AM

Thanks to everyone for the input! I'm very new like I said.....just working with Acid7, Sound Forge10, Axiom25, Fast track pro, krk5's and a beginners mic. I'd say the most challenging thing to me at this time is training my ear as to what sounds good! I'll be mixing down a track in acid to what I think are great levels, only to have my dreams of super-producer crushed when I hear my mix finished and compared to store bought CD's! (that was a couple of weeks ago) Although I'm far from where I'd like to be, things have gotten alot better, i.e. I'm paying alot more attention to my tracks in the mix phase. So thanks to all who helped! I still need to get help with the compression proccess. Do all tracks need compression? What about compressing the entire song? Does one cancel the other out? Thanks in advance......

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:10/4/2009 10:28:39 AM

[I]"I'd say the most challenging thing to me at this time is training my ear as to what sounds good!"

That's why every good audio engineer keeps a variety of commercial recordings around for reference -- to compare his mixes to something he knows sounds good!

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:10/4/2009 4:31:37 PM

"So thanks to all who helped! I still need to get help with the compression proccess. Do all tracks need compression? What about compressing the entire song? Does one cancel the other out? "

My personal preference is not to compress tracks unless needed. Typically vocals will need some compression - more if your vocalist is very dynamic. Electric bass generally needs a bit and live drumkits may need some as well.

Compressing the entire song adds more compression, it doesn't cancel out track compression.

Compressing the entire song is done to create a song that sounds louder. It does this by raising the volume of the quieter bits while keeping the loudest bits constant. If you overdo it you will create a song which lacks dynamic interest - it's full on all the way through. You can also increase low-level background noise and add distortion if you overdo things.

Be aware that many songs played on radio these days are over-compressed. It helps to be able to recognise what this sounds like so you can make a conscious decision before you do it yourself.

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: walterh

Date:12/31/2009 6:24:35 PM

Nation Public Radio had a segment on this subject Titled "The Loudness Wars: Why Music Sounds Worse". Here is the link to the segment:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122114058
you can listen to the segment and view a pdf chart of the levels in hit songs from 1979 to the present.
Maybe quality no longer matters if consumers are listening to mp3s through ear buds.

Walter

Subject:RE: How do I increase overall levels?!!

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:1/3/2010 4:39:23 PM

"Do all tracks need compression?"

You would normally only compress tracks that need it. Typically, this will include mainly vocals and bass, as these jump around a lot and may ocassionally peak. The aim is to get each track sitting right in the mix so that it doesn't occasionally seem to disappear or dominate (unless that is part of the arrangement).

"What about compressing the entire song?"

As indicated by others, overall compression is generally a loudness thing, and is usually done using a limiter (like the one in Wave Hammer. I personally use the Waves L1.