Subject:remastering LPs

Posted by: Bob N

Date:11/27/2009 3:27:36 PM

I have noticed that digitally remastered analog tapes for CD reissues of older LPs sound better than the original. Is there any way to accomplish this improvement using SF9?

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:11/27/2009 6:12:59 PM

Are you talking about improving a bit on the sound on your LPs with a little processing, or are you talking about remastering the audio from the original studio tracks? Your question does not make it at all clear what your intent is.

Those are two entirely different questions, and yes, the first could be accomplished to some degree in Sound Forge.

The second (do you have a 2" tape console and access to the studio reels?) would be better done in a multitrack DAW, such as Vegas.

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:11/28/2009 4:19:35 AM

I meant improving the sound of the LPs after bringing the tracks into SF9. I already use the "snap crackle pop" eliminator, but the resulting .WAVs and the CDs just don't have the "brightness". Thanks for responding.

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:11/29/2009 2:31:36 AM

If the brightnes is going as a result of the de-kellogsing, then you are de-kellogsing to hard. It's a trade-off between removal of unwanted and removal of wanted.

But I've found transcribing from LP to be a testament to just how crappy LPs were/are. Even the audiophile recordings/pressings.

Of course if it is not available on a CD made from a good master tape (and done well, unlike dsome early ones), then transcription is a valid option.

Try different tools - I've had good results from the Waves "X-" plugins, on Sound Forge and also directly in CD Architect.

geoff

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:11/30/2009 1:11:10 PM

Are you running your turntable through a proper preamp designed with the RIAA eq circuitry built-in? You can't just plug a turntable into any old preamp or soundcard and expect to get good results. Remember also that record cartridiges want to see as part of the loading a 47K ohm input impedance.

I have gotten some really good results using SF9, some of the tools therein, and a good, clean, dust-free record.
Jack

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/3/2009 7:24:23 AM

Jack,
My NAD amp doesn't have a turntable preamp, so I do connect the NAD turntable to a separate preamp ($100 range) then into the amp. My previous receiver had a built in preamp, and I took the signal from the earphone jack into the sound card, so I've continued to do the same. Are you suggesting that I bypass the amp and go straight from the preamp to the computer?
I too have SF9. Which tools are most helpful?
Bob

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/3/2009 7:26:44 PM

My previous receiver had a built in preamp, and I took the signal from the earphone jack into the sound card, so I've continued to do the same.

Not a good idea to take your feed from the earphone jack.

Does your reciever have a 'tape output' or "tape monitor' output set of jacks? You should be able to tap from these to your sound card.

What type of separate preamp do you have? (Make and model)

Peter

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:12/4/2009 4:56:46 AM

Bob N. said:
Jack,
My NAD amp doesn't have a turntable preamp, so I do connect the NAD turntable to a separate preamp ($100 range) then into the amp. My previous receiver had a built in preamp, and I took the signal from the earphone jack into the sound card, so I've continued to do the same. Are you suggesting that I bypass the amp and go straight from the preamp to the computer?
I too have SF9. Which tools are most helpful?
Bob

My reply:
Bob:
Just go from the preamp right to your soundcard. Remember to hook the ground from the turntable to the preamp so you don't get hum. What I use is a direct box from Radial called the J33 ($200 from Sweetwater) right into the mic inputs of my Edirol UA1000 sound I/O. Turn on the phantom power (so you don't need the wall wart that comes with the J33), hook everything up and you're ready to record.

As to tools in SF9 I tend to use the declick, decrackle, denoise plugs. I also use Bias Soundsoap on occasion. Another thing I do is to zoom in to the timeline and use the pencil tool to edit the single clicks and pops.
Jack

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/4/2009 12:54:14 PM

SonyPCH

I was probably using the earphone jack because I had the required adapter. I'll need to pick up one for the RCA jacks to the sound card. Or for the tape outpu which I no longer use.

The phono preamp is a NAD PP2

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/4/2009 1:01:52 PM

Geoff,

Could you please expand on: ...good results from the Waves "X-" plugins, on Sound Forge and also directly in CD Architect. TIA
Bob

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/4/2009 1:06:43 PM

Jack,

My older Pro-ject 1.2 had a ground wire, but the NAD/Rega does not.

You lost me on: "Turn on the phantom power (so you don't need the wall wart " I know what the wall wart is, what is the phantom power?

The pencil tool is so time consuming, but it does allow you do really see what you are editing.

Bob

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: rraud

Date:12/4/2009 4:38:39 PM

I know what the wall wart is, what is the phantom power?
Phantom Power. (term copyrighted by Neumann ) normally 48V, to supply power to condenser microphones via balanced mic inputs. It also can be used to power active direct boxes (DIs) and other devices.
The power on pins 2-3 has no effect and is 'invisible' to non-powered balanced mics. Hence the name 'Phantom'

"From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia"
Phantom power (usually P48 or 48 volts in pro audio equipment, sometimes lower (e.g. 12 volts) is a method that sends a DC electrical power through microphone cables to operate microphones that contain active electronic circuitry. It is best known as a common power source for condenser microphones, though many active DI boxes also use it.

Phantom power supplies are often built into mixing desks, microphone preamplifiers and similar equipment. In addition to powering the circuitry of a microphone, in traditional (DC-polarized) condenser microphones the phantom powering directly or indirectly supplies the voltage used for polarizing the microphone's transducer element ("capsule")

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:12/4/2009 5:20:02 PM

My older Pro-ject 1.2 had a ground wire, but the NAD/Rega does not.

You're definitely going to need to hook up that ground wire from the turntable. That's to provide a proper chassis ground which you don't get from just the audio cables coming from the cartridge. Those cables just provide a return from the cartridge, not an AC (power) ground. Elsewise you're going to get horrendous 60 Hz hum.

Jack

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/5/2009 10:37:50 AM

Jack,

I drove over to ask my dealer about this, and he verified that the NAD (made by Rega and equivalent to the P1) does not have a ground wire. It is somehow grounded internally.

The sound card in my old HP desktop is a Sound Blaster Audigy2, but some of the recent LPs I've done that are less than satisfactory were done with my Dell notebook, and I hadn't thought about the quality of the sound card and I'm not even sure how to figure out what it is. Edit: I just found that it's A SIGMATEL STAC 975X AC97

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:12/5/2009 4:50:46 PM

"Waves" brand plugins X-Noise , X-Click, and X-Crackle are easy to use and give good results.

geoff

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:12/5/2009 6:37:19 PM

Bob N said:
I drove over to ask my dealer about this, and he verified that the NAD (made by Rega and equivalent to the P1) does not have a ground wire. It is somehow grounded internally.

The sound card in my old HP desktop is a Sound Blaster Audigy2, but some of the recent LPs I've done that are less than satisfactory were done with my Dell notebook, and I hadn't thought about the quality of the sound card and I'm not even sure how to figure out what it is. Edit: I just found that it's A SIGMATEL STAC 975X AC97

My reply (I wish we had a proper quote function):
First: how many cables do you have coming over from the turntable and what kind? Is it 2 cables with RCA connectors on the preamp end? If so, there's no ground wire from the turntable there - that's a separate wire. I just looked at the Rega and NAD turntables and they all look like they have the traditional 2 cables with RCA connectors on them, which do NOT have a ground wire from the chassis which is a separate wire. In a normal turntable the audio cables only carry the 4 wires from the back of the carttridge. You actually have 2 grounds from a turntable - signal/audio ground and a chassis ground.
Second:
Both the soundcards you cite are onboard cards that are good for nothing more than Windows sounds and games. For serious work, especially what you're doing, especially if it's for more than just a few albums, get a decent soundcard. Read up on the technology, since it seems you are lacking in that department - knowledge of what's needed. I'm not trying to say anything bad - we were all beginners at some point and needed help. I don't know if you record any music of your own with your setup, but something as basic as a good sound I/O will do you a world of good. There's all kinds of excellent pieces out there - MOTU, M Audio, etc. Either Firewire or USB 2.0 boxes will provide what you need. Check out sites like Sweetwater, American Music Supply, Musician's Friend for the hardware you'll need.
Jack

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/8/2009 11:08:33 AM

Jack,
And I thought the Audigy2 was the cat's meow... I just got back from looking at the M-Audio Fast Track Pro, and it looks like what I need for what I am doing: only porting LPs to CD at the moment. The tech guy showed me a Tascom US122MKII and said it has the same capabilities as the M-Audio for less $$, $200 vs $130, but I cannot find any direct comparisons online. Is the M-Audio significantly better? None of the places like Sweetwater make any comparison easy.
Bob

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:12/8/2009 2:36:02 PM

The Tascam and M-Audio are both good units. Only you can decide which one's better for what you're doing. One thing you could do to help make the comparison is to go to each manufacturer's site and look individually at each unit. have both sites up on your monitor and just switch abck and forth. Or,download the manuals for each if you can, or at least print out the specs of each and compare offline.

Here's a link to the unit on Tascam's site:
http://www.tascam.com/products/us-122mkII;9,15,3816,19.html

Here's a link to the unit at the M-Audio site:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FastTrackPro.html

Check them out and you should be good to go.

Jack

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/8/2009 8:26:32 PM

Thanks, Jack. I am not able to see any real differences between the two. They have different software included, but I'll be using SF9, so that's not important unless I am missing something. I really appreciate your help with this.
Bob

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:12/8/2009 10:56:24 PM

Bob, I am not so sure you need to buy a new soundcard. If you are just "remastering" for your own use, the Soundblaster should be fine.

For the record, I have a Rega turntable and preamp in my hifi system, and you can take the direct outs (RCA sockets) straight to your soundcard line in. The preamp out is a line level signal for input to your power amp, so the signal should be fine for recording.

Also for the record, I have a Yamaha O1X and an additional Echo soundcard on my studio PC, so I know the difference between soundcards. The soundblaster on my "Office" PC is not the one I would use for recording, but I doubt the sound quality difference would be noticeable to most people.

The Waves plug-ins are excellent - I have their Silver bundle, but not the noise processors. However, they are all very expensive. Buy them by all means if you have the funds. If you don't, the Sony tools are more cost-effective.

SoundForge 8 (or was it 7?) bundled SOny Noise reduction AND CD Architect, which makes a good pacakage for digitising vinyl tracks, processing them and assembling onto CD for burning. There really is no way to avoid spending lots of time on the project, but these tools should get the job done.

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/9/2009 9:18:16 AM

I think I mentioned that I have NAD turntable and preamp. The NAD is made by Rega and is equivalent to the P1, so it's decent. The Audigy2 is in an HP desktop with only 512Meg of RAM and has a big CRT monitor. SF9 and the other stuff you mentioned are on my laptop which has 1Gig RAM. When I moved earlier this year the HP was left in a box and the issue came down to whether to upgrade memory and invest in a flat screen monitor, or get the external sound card. Actually I think the latter is less $$ and is space saving.

You are probably correct about not noticing the difference, particularly those of us past middle years, but the last LP->CD I did sounded much flatter than the LP. SF9, CDA, and NR2 are a good package for my level. Thanks for your thoughts.

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/9/2009 2:21:15 PM

The PP2 should work fine. I read the pdf of the manual. Make sure you follow the instructions provided with the PP2. The PP2 expects to be connected to a Line Level input .

Peter

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:12/9/2009 3:16:29 PM

Play the LP thru your speakers while transferring and all the euphonic distortions added by the mechanical excitation will go onto the CD. If that's want you want....

I just 'buy the CD' if possible, second-hand (or even new) CDs are very affordbabe these days. That way you are listening to the master tape (hopefully well transcribed) rather than a chunk of plastic waggling a rock on a stick ;-)

BTW, I just took home a NAD PP3 to try out, instead of my old RIAA/soundcard setup. The PP3 is a mid-to-high end phono preamp that also has a USB output (as well as Line), and shows up in SF as a recording device.

geoff

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/10/2009 9:43:51 AM

Not sure what you mean by: "Play the LP thru your speakers while transferring and all the euphonic distortions added by the mechanical excitation will go onto the CD. If that's want you want...." , unless you are just being ironic. ;-)

"rather than a chunk of plastic waggling a rock on a stick ;-)"
Now that is ironic, and would rankle an audiophile who just spent $3,000 on a turntable and $5,000 for a tube amp. Actually, most of what I transcribe from LP to CD has never been reissued on CD. E.g., many of my 30 odd Gene Krupa LPs were never reissued as the original sessions, but instead as some weird compilation. The one I am working on now is a Joe Morello (drummer with Dave Brubeck) LP that I picked up for less than $10; the CD goes for between $50 and $135 on Amazon.

I just discovered the NAD PP3 has a USB output. If I didn't already have the PP2 that would have been the obvious choice. Does the signal still go through the sound card's A/D converter?

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:12/10/2009 6:29:44 PM

No, not ironic. If you have speaker playing the music, unless your TT is incredibly well-damped, you will be adding an 'effect' to the sound. This may or may not be an 'improvement'. Try both ways and see, but a euphonic effect is what I put down some afficionados preference for vinyl.

Any suggestion that vinyl was not in some way superior to anything else (concidentally totally unmeasurable or from an as yet undiscovered branch of physics) would rankle a vinyl purist ;-)

I'm 99.9999% sure the PP3 line out does NOT go thru A-D. There is no D-A function as a computer output - just the A-D input.

I have spent a lot of time and effort transcribing audiophile pressings of vinyl to CD, and apart from a few desperately indifferent original-generation CDs, find the commercial CD far superior.

Of course for a lot of what we are doing here there may not be commercial CDs available, which is a pretty good reason to do it !

geoff

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:12/11/2009 4:02:21 AM

Geoff:
Your assertion that a speaker (actually a pair of speakers) outputting the music that at the same time you are trying to record said music will somehow affect the turntable playing that music is absurd. Unless you have the speakers pointed directly at the turntable, less than a couple of feet away, at earsplitting levels (in which case you wouldn't want to be in the same room), there's no way that will affect the tracking of a needle on vinyl. You have a better chance of tracking problems with a turntable that's not properly set-up: tracking force at the right amount, chassis level, proper anti-skating force, or a record that's got surface flaws to begin with - scratches, dust and dirt particles - than you do from speakers affecting playback, however infinitesimal that may be.

Sure, turntables (actually the old record changers of yore) could be made to skip with extreme mechanical vibrations but what we're talking about here, with the equipment involved is totally different. Modern equipment just won't exhibit the problems you cite.

Jack

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/11/2009 7:13:22 AM

"I'm 99.9999% sure the PP3 line out does NOT go thru A-D. There is no D-A function as a computer output - just the A-D input." This makes me realize just how little I know about so much of this stuff.

"Any suggestion that vinyl was not in some way superior to anything else (concidentally totally unmeasurable or from an as yet undiscovered branch of physics) would rankle a vinyl purist ;-)" Perhaps even an audiophile would agree with you here, as I have the impression from those whom I've talked to that they would admit that it is subjective, that it is in what they hear, not what can be measured with sophisticated equipment. I must admit that I have difficulty hearing the difference except when sitting in a particular spot in a well-prepared audiophile listening room. But then my ears are pretty old.

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:12/13/2009 4:37:32 PM

Why not ? That's one of the reasons why the better quality turntables have rather solid inert plinths and platters. I'm not talking about skipping, I'm talking subtle nuances imposed on the signal.

Tonearms can be excited by musical vibration. albeit very small. But we are talking tiny vibrations and signal levles in he first place . Both from external noise and mechanical feedback from the media itself.

As I suggested, try it.

geoff

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Bob N

Date:12/14/2009 1:56:57 PM

I wanted to report back that the Tascam 122MKII is a fine addition to my system. It allows me to vary the imported sound level and the monitoring volume level to the phones. and I've got features to spare. Thanks for the suggestions and help.

Subject:RE: remastering LPs

Reply by: Joe Crowe

Date:8/1/2010 8:42:36 PM

Better sound, fragile medium. Take better care of your records and buy a decent turntable. If you are going to express a "highly biased" opinion please make reference to the fact it is just only ones' opinion. It took twenty years before a digiital recording could be in the same room with a quality analog production and only after the industry admitted it had lied for 20 years about the quality of digital recording. The greatest benefit of working in the digital medium is easy of use not the quality, in my humble opinion!