Comments

apit34356 wrote on 12/2/2009, 3:36 PM
long term storage is a problem that has been looked at a lot the last 50 years ;-) The problem with retail discs used for "burning" are too many to list. "Large" Gold surfaces are still the preferred media, usually like 100+ dvd => . for the US big boys. But the key issue is maintaining the reading technology in a usable matter over a extended period of time for the computing IT. Holo-gram tech was interesting, but does not do well over time with extended reading of data, just like 35 mm film ;-) the science of 1&0's will not fit into the next generation of big storage. ;-) science has been able to encode a 3-4 meg picture onto a single photon, so you can guess where it's going.
farss wrote on 12/2/2009, 7:07 PM
The article contains factual errors. Both the problem of oxidation of the reflective layer and the degradation of the dye layer were identified years ago at the same time and both 'solved' with media that uses a gold reflective layer and a phthalocyanine dye layer. Accelerated aging tests reveal a life expectancy of 100 years and so far all of mine are holding up.

Cranberry offer no information about what they're using. If it's that rock solid then they must be using some serious laser power to burn the pits in it. I wonder how many regulation lasers of that power level violate as consummer devices. Even more troubling is their statement that their 4.7GB DVDs can hold 3 hours of video. Anyone archiving content knows that lossy compression is the last thing one should be using.


"The Cranberry Disc is the only survivor after this rigorous testing. Considering the combination of the Cranberry Disc?fs test results and its rock?]like data layer, it is reasonable to conclude that the Cranberry Disc has a greater longevity and durability than competitors who claim a 300?]year shelf life."

OK, fine, their product has been tested by Millenniata, they appear to be the actual manufacturer of the disks and burners. They're not a certified testing facility. It just gets better and better.


So they've tested the competition to ECMA-379 except they've added exposure to UV light. I cannot imagine why anyone would store arichival media exposed to UV light but of course existing optical media will fail after prolonged exposure to UV light, so does paper, plastics and even some stone.

These guys might have a great product, the price is reasonable if what they're selling is as good as they claim but less snake oil and more solid data would help their cause no end.

Bob.
Coursedesign wrote on 12/2/2009, 7:09 PM
Yes, their web site is comical.

Especially the following is so very reassuring:

We need your money. How's that for transparency? The technology behind the DiamonDisc is so expensive that we cannot make much money selling you the DVD. We need you to subscribe to the DVD vault service so that we can pay the bills.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 12/2/2009, 7:28 PM
...but I have CD's I burned from 2000 that still work...
farss wrote on 12/2/2009, 7:33 PM
I have been to the Stone Tablet Musem in Xian. The only risk to these records was earthquakes. Making dubs was something to see, a very large roller, large tub of ink and a huge piece of paper.

Bob.
Coursedesign wrote on 12/2/2009, 8:39 PM
For about $3,000-$4,000 it is now possible to get a good LTO-4 drive with 800 GB tapes that last 20-30 years.

Media throughput is 120 MB/sec. (faster than you can feed with Gigabit Ethernet).

For longer durability than LTO-4, you have to record your video onto 35mm film (ideally three black-and-white separations), and store the reels in a salt mine (there are commercial services that do this for Hollywood at a storage fee of a mere $12,000 per year per feature film).
JJKizak wrote on 12/3/2009, 4:47 AM
A lot of organizations around here are using microfilm for archiving.
JJK
Coursedesign wrote on 12/3/2009, 7:53 AM
Microfilm is usually 35 mm film.
JJKizak wrote on 12/3/2009, 12:38 PM
I forgot to mention that the Cleveland Courts have ruled that archiving on a harddrive oor website is not legal in reference to land titles. It must be hand written in a book , recorded on microfilm, etc. Reason is no-one can be sure that it hasn't been hacked or changed and once changed nobody knows nothing.
JJK
Xander wrote on 12/3/2009, 12:48 PM
You will soon be able to put any type of media into a pdf: video, audio, photos, words, etc. and print it to e-paper. Paper lasts a surprisingly long time.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 12/3/2009, 7:06 PM
I forgot to mention that the Cleveland Courts have ruled that archiving on a harddrive oor website is not legal in reference to land titles. It must be hand written in a book , recorded on microfilm, etc. Reason is no-one can be sure that it hasn't been hacked or changed and once changed nobody knows nothing.

that's the bad part about someone on govt not knowing what science can do. "Hard" records can be faked just as easily as digital. Only difference is that nobody looks @ paper. Me & my wife found out our property had the wrong address with the county on the books. Cost some $$ & time to fix that so we could build. The digital records were correct, nobody just ever bothered fixing the books years ago.
john-beale wrote on 12/3/2009, 10:38 PM
"Hard records can be faked just as easily as digital."

I dispute that statement. There are untold thousands of people who can hack online records remotely, from anywhere in the world there is an internet connection, and in many cases leave no lasting visible trace of having done so.

If I have a paper document in a physical filing cabinet, the number of people worldwide who can alter that with no lasting visible trace, is very significantly reduced. And those who would have the motivation and ability to physically travel there to do so, yet more reduced.
TShaw wrote on 12/4/2009, 1:59 AM
"science has been able to encode a 3-4 meg picture onto a single photon"

BS!

A single photon can carry a single bit of info. Period!

Terry
apit34356 wrote on 12/4/2009, 2:49 AM
"A single photon can carry a single bit of info. Period!" ha, you need to take a little more college physics, but a Phd would be better to understand the "mechanics" involved in this process. A single photon can be view as a wave/particle( for some) traveling thru time and space. even when "adsorbed" by an electron in "orbit" in an atom or molecule bond, its uniqueness remains. So, technically, every photon has a recorded history of it's existence, shown on it "wavelet" and something sometimes called a "datapacket". This is still poorly understood, but scientist have been able to encode to 3-4 megabits to demonstrated the photon's ability to "remember". Now, what does that mean, well, science fiction writers will probably figure out something cool that will generate ideas for engineers to build, but right now, optical coup multi-cores stack like skyscrapers, using encoded photons to pass massive data between them, is the current focus of cutting edge research at IBM, DARPA funded projects, etc.. -----------and it is very hard work.
JJKizak wrote on 12/4/2009, 4:58 AM
The photon problem of polarity has been plagueing teleportation experiments since day one.
JJK
TheHappyFriar wrote on 12/4/2009, 5:20 AM
If I have a paper document in a physical filing cabinet, the number of people worldwide who can alter that with no lasting visible trace, is very significantly reduced. And those who would have the motivation and ability to physically travel there to do so, yet more reduced.

I can have a digital record that's untouched on a CD in my office, yet it doesn't matter unless it can be confirmed. Nobody can alter that record but the court won't accept it because they say it COULD be faked. You don't hold the only records on the dead to your house, you don't hold the only record on your medical records (if you hold any at all), etc. Same if I keep something on a hard drive. The ease of ability to alter records wasn't questioned, just the ability to do it. I won't disagree physical records are best, but someone can replace a piece of paper just as easily as a digital document.
apit34356 wrote on 12/4/2009, 7:11 AM
"The photon problem of polarity has been plagueing teleportation experiments since day one." Oh how true ;-) but whats a quarks going to do,especially with 1/0 ---- thats 1 divided by zero(diameter)? ;-(
apit34356 wrote on 12/4/2009, 7:30 AM
Back to mech (metals) storage, extreme long term storage media that is or well be subject to hostile environments, starting elements looked at before compounds, usually are the elements that contain the "magic atomic numbers", Gold, Tin, .... elements that are extremely stable over time. Gold does the best, in almost all hostile environments excluding high temperatures and surface stresses. Tin is an interesting metal, but not usable in space ;-) ; many individuals has build careers searching for the perfect "media", and many more will too.
TShaw wrote on 12/4/2009, 3:45 PM
""A single photon can carry a single bit of info. Period!" ha, you need to take a little more college physics, but a Phd would be better to understand the "mechanics" involved in this process. A single photon can be view as a wave/particle( for some) traveling thru time and space. even when "adsorbed" by an electron in "orbit" in an atom or molecule bond, its uniqueness remains. So, technically, every photon has a recorded history of it's existence, shown on it "wavelet" and something sometimes called a "datapacket". This is still poorly understood, but scientist have been able to encode to 3-4 megabits to demonstrated the photon's ability to "remember". Now, what does that mean, well, science fiction writers will probably figure out something cool that will generate ideas for engineers to build, but right now, optical coup multi-cores stack like skyscrapers, using encoded photons to pass massive data between them, is the current focus of cutting edge research at IBM, DARPA funded projects, etc.. -----------and it is very hard work"


And the Earth is still flat.

Terry
CorTed wrote on 12/4/2009, 4:09 PM
"Tin is an interesting metal, but not usable in space....."

Oh no, not Tin. Lead Free solder = Tin Whiskers. (wonder why your cell phones are dead only after a couple of years..........)

Ted
apit34356 wrote on 12/4/2009, 6:13 PM
"And the Earth is still flat." Gee, thanks for the news flash, we'll start re-writing Kepler's laws. So this could good news, if I paid for a cruise ship "to the ends of the earth" for my EX, there's a good chance that she'll fall over the edge? Sounds good, thanks for the tip! Tho, I might feel guilty about polluting orbital space with toxin bio matter(EX)................. but then what are nav systems in those $300Ml satellites for.........

Terry, since you fixed Kepler's orbital law issues for flat surfaces by collapsing circler orbits into a boomerang pattern, very brilliantly, maybe you can fix the gravitational wave problem at point 0 as mass approaches +1 million sun masses? or the collapse of the atomic elements' core into quarks,etc,,,, at 0+1/infinite? ;-) Because I would really like to tossed EX's mother into a portable black hole and see who is darker..............I fear that the black hole may lose.... ;-)
TShaw wrote on 12/4/2009, 8:43 PM
apit34356,
my colleagues and I on the UW Madison campu are have quite a laugh. Let us hear more, please.

Terry
apit34356 wrote on 12/4/2009, 11:35 PM
"my colleagues and I on the UW Madison campu" I assume that one of Chairs or associates has DARPA high tech "detailed" research clearance access ;-), read DARPA description minimum goals and advanced goals for stacked cores using "optical" coupling. Then check the addutem for advance goals for optical bandwidth. Sun systems made a lot of noise about using optical coupling in the beginning besides IBM. Tho IBM is really years ahead of SUN in this approach, But SUN systems did push the ideal if vertical stacking cores all sharing a common optical path. Of course, stacking is a "cooling nightmare" under normal conditions. But in the stacking designs, there are hints of alternate materials for FP units and local L1 cache for heat and speed issues. Sun systems never successively demonstrated a complete mini model, but the subcomponents for the interconnects did spark the old "optical" computer debate.

"Photon can only equal one bit" ----- well this does not go well with the quantum model . ;-) Its like the old days of radio, AM signal vs new FM signal tech; people hear about Doppler shift in astro physics in measuring distance and by the Doppler shift, approaching or moving away. This simple fact, the Doppler effect with light, reveals that the photon can do more; the hard part now is doing it and reading it in a extremely reliable way that can be mass produce and manufactured using 22-45 nm manufacturing tech. This is the real trick, well one of many actually. But if you are familiar with cell tower antennas and the clever antenna design inside everyone cellphone today, you'll see that receptors don't have to square, linear or be in a 2D plane. The one of the critical beasts is the delay, like digital 3G phones; enough of this. So play nice or UM will sent UW our "wonderful" football coach to destroy your sports program...... he's done a great job bulldozing ours and we are paying him big dollars to trash the big house! ;-(