Subject:SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Posted by: tomaras

Date:9/5/2009 7:57:00 PM

Well...once again I'm completely dissapointed that "puportedly" Professional applications like SF and Vegas have missed the mark. I can't quite figure how adding a Broadcast Wave Properties window does anyone any good in a professional audio enviornment. How is this considered enhanced BWF support?

We need to be able to import BWF files with timecode and have them put on a SMPTE timeline and we need to be able to save or render files in the BWF format with full timecode metadata. Anything less and neither SF or Vegas have any claim to professional audio applications for use in the video world.

EVERY professional location audio recorder made for timecoded film or video work records BWF files with timecode in the metadata. It's not just a couple of them, it's the entire category of machine from Zaxcom Deva, Fostex, HHB, Nagra, Sound Devices, Sonosax, etc etc. It's been the defacto standard for darn near a decade now. WAKE UP SONY. THIS IS NOT PROFESSIONAL SOFTWARE without full support of BWF. If people can't open, edit and deliver BWF to another editor as BWF, they cannot use this for work in the sound for video field. This remains prosumer grade software.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:9/5/2009 8:21:13 PM

You're not alone here. Do a search for BWF and you'll find lots of support for your position. That this apparently has not been implemented in SF10 is a deal-buster for me.

In the meantime, the Wave Agent Beta from Sound Devices is my free friend, when I need it.

I'm sure rraud is going to have a comment here, brace yourself.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ChristoC

Date:9/6/2009 1:34:38 AM

I agree 100%
Useless as tits on a bull.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:9/7/2009 12:51:46 AM

I think I was a little harsh, so I deleted the previous rant. Sorry if I offended anyone at SCS.
I must buy Jon & Mat from SD a drink for Wave Agent.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: tomaras

Date:10/4/2009 9:14:58 AM

If anyone is going to AES and will be talking to Sony reps, please ask them about BWF support. When they "read from a spec sheet" that SF10 offers "enhanced" BWF support, ask them what that is and how that could be of any practical use to anyone working with BWF files.

I can only assume that the people at Sony who make this software are firmly rooted in a project studio music mentality and have no idea what's going on in the real world of audio post for video and location sound.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:10/4/2009 9:45:24 AM

Yes, I plan on going to AES, whether the SCS folks will speak to me after my online rants is unclear. I will certainly ask they're BWF rational for both SF and Vegas.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:10/4/2009 9:59:16 AM

rraud,
The fact that you've been here for nine years and your comments haven't gotten you banned (like that other fellow who had a bunch of "r"s in his name) is a pretty good indication that they are listening to you. If you'll explain the situation logically, it may help our cause for full BWF support in Sony products.

I have to mention that other parts of the industry, particularly the portable / field recorder market, are way behind in BWF and T/C sync support. Maybe it's such a niche market they don't particularly care.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: tomaras

Date:10/7/2009 1:13:28 AM

What portable field recorder market are you referring to? The prosumer market? The professional portable field recorder market has been BWF with TC for YEARS, MANY YEARS.

Sony calls Sound Forge "professional" software yet they screw with us by adding FLAC support and not BWF. I cannot think of a professional audio job where FLAC is either the source or the final delivery codec.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:10/7/2009 7:44:09 AM

Even the cheapo recorders like the H2 create BWF. No user control of course but approx. TOD via the originator info which can be easily converted to a TC stamp via Wave Agent.

(if one remembers to set the recorder's date/time clock occasionally)

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: tomaras

Date:10/7/2009 11:43:26 AM

Well now Marantz has also joined the Professional BWF with Timcode manufacturer's list with a new 8 track location recorder they are introducing at AES. So...

Zaxcom: since early 2000's
Sound Devices: since 2004
Nagra: since 2003
Fostex: since maybe 2004
HHB: since 2003
Sonosax: Since mid 2000's
Aaton Cantar: Since early 2000's
Marantz: new this month
Not to mention the computer based applications Metacorder and Boom Recorder.

You would think that would be enough manufacturer's supporting BWF for enough years that someone at Sony might have a clue. I mean really what are they thinking professional means?

How the heck do we use Sound Forge or Vegas to work on files created by these recorders and do any editing of length if we cannot pass them on to the next chain in post as valid BWF files with SMPTE timecode?

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:10/9/2009 4:42:13 PM

Charles and friends, I went to AES today and was told by the friendly folks at the Sony booth that no one from Madison (SCS) would be there.
OT: But I got to handle the new portable D10 though and it's real nice... thin, nice display and design, has a rotary soft knob for record level and other functions. More OT: I also checked out the Tascam's 8-trk. location sound recorder. It has eight mic pre's, an assignable 2-trk sub-recorder, a very nice touch screen and full TC / WC sync capabilities. But... it's about three times the size and weight of a SD-788.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: tomaras

Date:10/10/2009 10:34:24 AM

>>I went to AES today and was told by the friendly folks at the Sony booth that no one from Madison (SCS) would be there.<<

Makes plenty of sense that they would not attend the show where PROFESSIONAL audio engineers might be. I feel like such an idiot for having purchased the SF 10 upgrade. It's really time for me to move on. They don't respond to rational emails, they don't respond to rational forum posts and they don't respond to irrational forum pleadings.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:10/11/2009 7:52:32 AM

From reading the posts here and on other forums, SCS does not respond to tech support issues well either.
I am starting the think the division is in financial straits and their days are numbered.They should sell back to Sonic Foundry when someone actually gave a sh_t.
I already have Sonar for dealing with OMFs (another Vegas shortcoming) and am considering Wavelab as an alternative to SF. I've used SF since v3.
I feel like such an idiot for having purchased the SF 10 upgrade:. Idiot #2 here.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: FuTz

Date:10/12/2009 4:57:04 AM

Just noticed the SoundForge 10 advertising in my e-mails.
What a joke.
Still no BWF save.
Not here, not in Vegas...
We're heading to 2010 Sony !!!!

A joke, Sony, you're a JOKE !!!

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: drbam

Date:10/12/2009 7:08:25 AM

Since my work doesn't involve video, I don't have the same complaints about BWF support but do share a general perception that SMS has not kept pace with other "professional" apps that SMS supposedly tries to compete with. As a long time user of Vegas, SF and Acid, it is frustrating to say the least.

The glaring irony for me that is revealed in this thread is that SMS lost many of its pro audio folks when it started focusing its development on video features leaving their audio only users to look elsewhere for full featured audio apps. And now apparently they will be losing some of its video users because they are not meeting some basic audio needs of this group (full BWF support). Weird . . . !

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:10/13/2009 8:09:25 AM

Vegas allows you to import BWF to it's embedded position via File->Import->Broadcast Wave. There are options to add across tracks or time, insert by timestamp or alphabetically, and insert relative to absolute ruler time or cursor position.

Sound Forge is primarily a file editor. It exposes the contents of the bext chunk and allows the user to edit or add new bext information and save it (in a .wav file if you want it to be compatible with other BWF hosts).

I'm having difficulty separating the ire from the tangible shortcomings here. Please clarify:

1) Do you want to be able to import multiple files in Forge based on timestamp as you would in a project-based situation?

2) Is it unclear that Broadcast Wave is just a .wav file with extra metadata chunk(s)? Are you expecting it to show up as its own format?

3) Is something missing from the Broadcast Wave metadata window that you were expecting? Is it just too tedious to enter raw chunk information for new files? Are you expecting Sound Forge to automatically updated information based on something other than direct user input? What do you propose?

4) Are the optional chunks (iXML, qlty, levl, etc.) important to your workflow? They will persist if they are present in the file, but Sound Forge doesn't update them or expose them for editing.

J.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ChristoC

Date:10/14/2009 4:11:20 AM

Your questions:

1) Yes just like Vegas, so files can by synced with vision.
2) Quite clear to me!
3) Works a bit starnge - see below. Suggest an Hr:Min:Sec:Fr:samp DataEntry/readout (eg 00:00:00:00:0000) would be helpful for OriginTimeRef...... absolute samples isn't so easy.
4) Not necessary for me.

I'm aware BWF imported into SF retain their 'BWFness' (persistence) to some extent e.g. if processed etc.
However I would expect that if I cut say 10 seconds from the front of a file, the exported version would start later i.e. not at the same OriginTimeRef, but 10 sec later.
Also, for original recordings made within SF we should be able to set the Broadcast Wave metadata.

BTW would you care to comment:
for example, @fs=44.1Khz
In the BWF metadata page, OriginTimeRef = 76462344 (which is OriginTimeRef 00:28:53:21.0000)
If I click on that figure and say try to change it to 76123456 the readout suddenly says 76,123,456 and saved/exported file now has OriginTimeRef of 00:00:00:00.0076 in a DAW that handles BWF correct for last 10 years. Reopening the same file in SF the 76,123,456 has suddenly jumped to 76.
Would you think that is a BUG - I do!

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: FuTz

Date:10/14/2009 6:30:34 AM

Be it in SF or Vegas,

I'd like to be able to save BWF files with all the metadata (I'm aware it's a WAV file in a "container" loaded with that additionnal data).
Yes it would be nice to see it appear as its own format so there's a quick reference when looking at the files.
A renaming application (batch mode) would sure be useful for some projects.
Also, while we're at it, being able to use something like my Sony PCM D-50 recordings and create a basic BWF file would be nice so when I deliver, I deliver everything in the same format. (I could use "time of day" (from the creation date in the file) as an approximate timecode and be happy with that)
The problem is we can't *render* BWF files here.

The optional chunks are not important to me for now as I'm mainly loading files from my wireless mic packs (Zaxcom) and delivering them to post-prod. But the more the better so implementing that option may be useful one day.

As I've said in earlier posts, Vegas of SF should *at least* be able to offer what Wave Agent (a free app by Sound Devices) does, implemented in the whole Sony "pro suite". With all the pro units listed with their own proprietary data if that is... there's not that much brands on the market and differences on that same format between these brands (maybe the way to name files and other minor differences) so I guess it must be feasible.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: tomaras

Date:10/14/2009 9:52:13 AM

Ok...here's a scenario for you.

I have a BWF TC capable recorder rolling on a job. I forget to stop the recorder and end up with an additional 3 minutes of audio at the end that I would like to cut and then pass along the BWF file to a video editor with proper BWF metadata as it pertains to timecode. No can do with Sound Forge or Vegas. Or I just want to trim the file/clip on each end before passing it along. Or lets say I roll for an hour uninterupted on a concert that is being video taped and I want to break up the audio into separate selections with proper TC information for each clip. Can't be done with Vegas or Sound Forge.

We need to be able to import the BWF file, edit it's length and then export/render the file as BWF for Vegas or Sound Forge to be useful tools for post work that will be passed on to someone else who is expecting BWF with TC metatdata.

In short, ANTHING that is on a SMPTE timeline in SF or Vegas should be exportable as a proper BWF file with the SMPTE timecode start point and length properly reflected.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:10/14/2009 10:18:43 AM

On (1), importing files by timestamp is not something we considered a priority for a file editor, but I admit it may helpful when using Forge as a lightweight project editor. Added to feature request database.

On (3), yes, raw samples is "what is really stored", but we may be able to make this friendlier in an update. A fixed HMSF format would be a little inflexible. Would input based on the current ruler format be reasonable?

Updating the timestamp based on edits gets a little tricky because it's not always clear that is the desired behavior, particularly on insertions. I will add it to the feature request database, but this is something that I'll need to think about a bit more.

You can add BWF fields to new files by right-clicking in the Broadcast Wave window. At a minimum, you need version, origination date, origination time, and origination time ref.

The bug you mention at the end with numerical entry has been fixed in the forthcoming 10.0a update.

Regards,
J.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:10/14/2009 10:38:26 AM

You can add BWF fields to new files by right-clicking in the Broadcast Wave window and selecting a field from the Insert sub-menu. At a minimum, you need version, origination date, origination time, and origination time ref (for Vegas, I haven't checked other hosts).

BWF is not exposed as its own format because it is, technically, not its own format. It is a standard RIFF .wav file with additional metadata.

Re-suffixing as .bwf is something that is generally discouraged by the EBU, though you can do that sort of thing with a simple script and manually filter them by selecting "All Files" and typing "*.bwf" into the File name field.

Attempting to filter .wav files automatically in the Open dialog would be a little painful since each file would have to be accessed and scanned for the bext chunk, but we could perhaps add an indicator field for individually selected files as we do for other metadata.

I will mention your suggestion to the Vegas team, but I suggest you also cross-post to their forums for greater visibility.

Regards,
J.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:10/14/2009 11:20:43 AM

In addition or repeat what's already posted.

Do you want to be able to import multiple files in Forge based on timestamp as you would in a project-based situation? (That would be handy to some)

Is it unclear that Broadcast Wave is just a .wav file with extra metadata chunk(s)? Are you expecting it to show up as its own format? (No, and changing the extension would just add to confussion. IMO

Is something missing from the Broadcast Wave metadata window that you were expecting? (No opinion yet)
Is it just too tedious to enter raw chunk information for new files? (No, not if a BWF COULD be created from scratch with SF or Vegas, However for existing BWF files, I'd rather leave the original info intact but have the option to edit the key factors like typos and mistakes on Scene #, Take name/number & notes.
Are you expecting Sound Forge to automatically updated information based on something other than direct user input?( No, as above )

Are the optional chunks (iXML, qlty, levl, etc.) important to your workflow? (Not at this point)
Many times I need to create a BWF from a normal WAVE, for instance a file rendered in Vegas. In addition the ability to delete excessive pre-roll/post-roll and edit the TC stamp.

Thanks for your interest.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:10/14/2009 11:28:58 AM

Well, as mentioned in my previous posts, all that can be done in Forge, but it is admittedly a very manual process in the current implementation.

"I have a BWF TC capable recorder rolling on a job. I forget to stop the recorder and end up with an additional 3 minutes of audio at the end that I would like to cut and then pass along the BWF file to a video editor with proper BWF metadata as it pertains to timecode"

Trimming the end has no effect on the timestamp. Are you not seeing the existing BWF information persist on Save?

"Or I just want to trim the file/clip on each end before passing it along."

In this case, yes, you'd have to manually increase the timestamp by the initial deletion length. Automatically updating the timestamp based on insert/delete is something I mentioned in one of my previous posts as a potential future improvement.

"Or lets say I roll for an hour uninterrupted on a concert that is being video taped and I want to break up the audio into separate selections with proper TC information for each clip."

Again, it could be done by saving off separate files and manually inserting the appropriate timestamp, though that's not particularly user-friendly. I've added a request to simplify this process, namely, to auto-populate the appropriate fields in a new file based on the source's BWF information and the new file's offset.

J.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:10/14/2009 11:35:11 AM

"No, not if a BWF COULD be created from scratch with SF or Vegas"

You can add BWF fields to any file by right-clicking in the Broadcast Wave window and selecting a field from the Insert sub-menu. At a minimum, you need version, origination date, origination time, and origination time ref.

Clearly this is not as discoverable as we thought, since this is the third or fourth time I'm mentioning it :-).

"However for existing BWF files, I'd rather leave the original info intact but have the option to edit the key factors like typos and mistakes on Scene #, Take name/number & notes."

This is the current behavior. Any future enhancements to auto-adjust BWF info based on other edits would definitely be optional.

Regards,
J.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: tomaras

Date:10/14/2009 2:08:45 PM

J.

To be honest with you I'm a location sound mixer and decidely not a computer geek. I need BWF support to be intuitive and automatic if it's going to be of use to me. If I have to calulate timestamps, samples before midnight etc I'm completely lost. I just want the ability to import a BWF file, edit or cut it into smaller pieces it to my hearts content and then have SF render or export valid BWF files from the resultant files that other applications will properly read with an accurate start time and length based on how I sliced and diced it in SF.

Would be nice if I could load a polyphonic BWF file with a mix and isos, strip out just the mix track for instance and resave that as a monophonic file to pass on to post with the original timecode metadata intact.

Would also love for the BWF implementation to be identical within Vegas so we can work easily out of both applications depending on our needs.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:10/14/2009 2:28:22 PM

Hi J. Hypothetical: Say I mix and render a .wav file in Vegas after EQ/cleaning up the interviews, adding music, S/FX ect. (typical documentary post audio). The first frame of this video segment starts @ 00:12:31:15 as seen in the video window burn of the reference (Final picture edit with editor's rough audio mix) WMV or QT. My "new" final audio mix syncs' perfectly with the reference files video & audio. If I open in SF-10 make a few overall level adjustments, no sync change of course, then set the TC stamp to "00:12:31:15", will an Avid, or even Vegas for that matter, be able to read the TC stamp.
Some video editors will not accept a file without a TC stamp for lay back.
Thanks again for interest in our BWF issues. (and rants)

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:10/14/2009 3:04:07 PM

Well, no promises on tools I don't currently have access to, but...yeah, they should.

I am able to assign version/date/time/timeref to a new or existing file in Forge, save it, and import it into Vegas with the desired result.

As we currently only expose the time ref as samples (its native form in the file), you'd first have to convert from timecode to samples. Assuming project and .wav sample rates are the same, that can be derived simply by dropping the cursor at 00:12:31.15 and switching the ruler format in Vegas to samples.

That pesky text-to-number bug in the initial release will unfortunately get in the way of you trying this yourself until 10.0a is released. One cheesy last-resort workaround until then would be to set the appropriate frame rate in Forge, insert 00:12:31.15 worth of silence at the head of the file, and add BWF version, date, time, and then a time reference of zero.

J.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:10/14/2009 3:22:22 PM

I understand and we'll continue to refine the behavior. Note that if you set the proper frame rate and display format in Forge, you can borrow the ruler to do all the timecode-to-samples math for you!

"Would be nice if I could load a polyphonic BWF file with a mix and isos, strip out just the mix track for instance and resave that as a monophonic file to pass on to post with the original timecode metadata intact."

This should already work. Open the file, delete all channels but the mix or use the Channel Converter tool, then Save As to a new .wav, ensuring that the "Save metadata with file" box is checked.

J.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ChristoC

Date:10/14/2009 8:37:41 PM

ForumAdmin:
On (1), importing files by timestamp is not something we considered a priority for a file editor, but I admit it may helpful when using Forge as a lightweight project editor. Added to feature request database.

- Thanks!

On (3), yes, raw samples is "what is really stored", but we may be able to make this friendlier in an update. A fixed HMSF format would be a little inflexible. Would input based on the current ruler format be reasonable?

- Yes. As long as relavent Samples are also displayed.

Updating the timestamp based on edits gets a little tricky because it's not always clear that is the desired behavior, particularly on insertions. I will add it to the feature request database, but this is something that I'll need to think about a bit more.

- I will think too; however most other DAWs I've encountered do it the way I suggest.

You can add BWF fields to new files by right-clicking in the Broadcast Wave window. At a minimum, you need version, origination date, origination time, and origination time ref.

- how handy that would be if mentioned in Manual! It's not always intuitive to right-click on everything that pops up!

The bug you mention at the end with numerical entry has been fixed in the forthcoming 10.0a update.

- support responded same when I filed bug report.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: K-Decisive

Date:8/16/2010 1:09:59 PM

humm...I may have inadvertently created a converter for this. I was playing with audio files that came from a (HD-P2??) Tascam audio with timecode in them. Is was able the read the timestamps out and convert them to a Vegas EDL. Does this sound like the BWF chunk??

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ChristoC

Date:8/16/2010 3:56:50 PM

Very likely, as there's no other timestamp method used in WAV files that I'm aware of.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:8/16/2010 5:23:35 PM

Yes, the Tascam P2 2-track writes BWF TC files. If desired, you could then edit the TC within SF or 'WaveAgent', but what's the point if already recorded on a TC machine.
However neither WA or SF-10 can create a BFW out of a normal WAV. When needed, I have cut/paste the audio into a 'known' BFW 'template' file, then edit the timecode and other metadata with WA. (or SF-10, then import to Vegas, PTs or wherever. A long way around but it gets you there.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: K-Decisive

Date:8/17/2010 8:49:50 AM

So, is it what is really needed are tools within Vegas to read the time code stamps and line up audio to them ( with some offsetting if needed )?. And to write to the time code stamp during wave rendering?.. or does Vegas and/or SF do that part of it?

It seems to be possible through a third party application. I'm doing it in Visual Studio, it might be possible through scripting if you can do binary file reads.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:8/17/2010 10:19:55 AM

Vegas, (as far back as at least Veg.6) will read a BWF timestamp and insert it correctly in the timeline. File> Import> Broadcast Wave. (Order tracks: "By Timestamp")
Vegas will not however render out a BWF. SCS apparently has no intention of adding it in either SF or Vegas. DUH!

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: tomaras

Date:8/20/2010 10:34:20 AM

>>Vegas will not however render out a BWF. SCS apparently has no intention of adding it in either SF or Vegas. DUH!<<

Don't quite understand your use of the word DUH? Why wouldn't Sony want to give us the ability to export or render BWF timestamped files?

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: rraud

Date:8/20/2010 11:12:42 AM

Why wouldn't Sony want to give us the ability to export or render BWF timestamped files?

I have no idea Charles. My sarcasm was directed at SCS. Why DOESN'T SCS give us the ability to export or render BWF files? It only seems 'logical' that we SHOULD have the option with (so-called) "pro" applications. (SF & Vegas)

I am attempting not to get too aggravated with Vegas' & SF shortcomings, saying non-constructive things to the SCS folks out of frustration.

Subject:RE: SF 10 Broadcast Wave support a bad joke.

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:9/13/2010 11:14:01 AM

Again, you have the ability in Forge.

- View->Metadata->Broadcast Wave
- right-click in the view, select Auto Populate
- Save or Save As to .wav

Alternatively, you can insert individual BWF fields with the same context menu. At a minimum, you need version, origination date, origination time, and origination time ref.

Whether it is a slick or obvious as you'd like is a different issue (and the more likely the target of your angst).

J.