Subject:Martin L

Posted by: Martin L

Date:9/11/2009 10:22:59 AM

Hi!
I am an owner and proffessional user of Vegas Pro 9 for video editing. I also record and produce music in my little studio. So far I have used Magix Music Studio 12.
Now I plan to upgrade to a more pro level DAW program and I am considering ACID Pro, since it would blend in easily with my Sony Vegas system. I record acoustic audio (through microphones) a lot and also use MIDI and VST-instrument alot. I create songs, and radio commersials. But it seams to me ACID is more leaning toward loop based music or electronica. Or am I wrong....?

Can anyone of you users give me some good reasons to buy ACID?
Reasons NOT to buy it?

If Sony ACID is good enough, what is Sony Sound Forge for? Do I need both, or is one of them enough?

I also consider other software like ProTools, Cubase, Reason, Logic et.c. and would like to know what the main differences are.

Thanks,
Martin

Subject:RE: Martin L

Reply by: cow.punk

Date:9/11/2009 10:48:04 AM

For what it's worth. My band and I use Acid Pro 6 for recording our rock band. I use drum loops when writing songs and working on 'inter band' demos. We then will replace the drum loops with real drums or just record live from scratch. Prior to Acid Pro 6 (multitrack recording), using Acid probobly wasn't your best bet but now it's great. Why? It has a great user interface and its very simple yet does everything most people would need to do. Honestly, I only mess a little with midi. It works great for adding synths and stuff but we are a power trio with no keys so I use midi more on my own wacky experiments. I think Acid it much more intuitive then other software I have used, and it is very stable. Vegas probably is too. The great thing about Acid is that you can quickly build up backing tracks to your ideas when they strike. Other programs can be such a pain to figure out 1 simple thing, it just kills creativity. By the way our band is far from 'slick' loop based music. I would recommend it but ...

Subject:RE: Martin L

Reply by: shakey

Date:9/11/2009 2:04:44 PM

Pro

very good user interface and audio editing, similar to protools, but I personally prefer the audio editing in acid
decent audio engine
for recording purposes it will accomplish most tasks very well
excellent timestretching
Intelligent grid snapping, stroke of genius!
easily pitch samples non destructively
easily reverse samples
easily edit samples in audio editor with right click

con

very limited in it's capabilities when it comes to making complicated electronic music, no sidechaining, no clip fx or envelopes, no transient detection, a very strange implementation of softsynth buses, separate fx sends and buses (even though they do the same thing), very buggy and unstable when you push it too far, poor multiprocessing engine, very few included plugins, copying data from one project to another is not possible, neither is copy dragging plugins from one strip to another on the mixer (you have to save the chain and then open it up on another strip, leaving you with hundreds of redundant chain
presets in the dropdown list), uninspiring ui, cumbersome automation, infuriating program change system.. I could go on

It might look like I am not a fan of acid, but that is entirely untrue. There are plenty of things I love about it, the fact you can edit audio properly without having to stop the track (due to having two cursors), the very intuitive audio editing and possibly the fact I have used it for 8 years. However, If you are serious about electronic music and want to get into some complex audio production I find it difficult to recommend. Acid is probably about 4 years behind the competition in it's complexity and the gap is increasing.

For band recording purposes the only thing which might bother you is the audio engine (while good it can't compete with protools 48bit or sonar's 64bit) or the lack of proprietary plugins. For this type of music I would recommend it.

It is a huge shame but it is the truth, that many big names in electronic music began their careers using acid, but when they grew frustrated with the restrictions they moved on to more advanced applications. Noisia, Phace and Misanthrop are a few examples. You will not see it in any professional studios.

By all means download a demo to try it for yourself, it is a brilliantly intuitive program, but don't take my word for it, make your own opinion.

If you are a professional vegas user then it could be just the thing for you


protools, very good but you will need a compatible interface, and I detest their company politics

reason, excellent workflow and incredible flexibility and routing, almost limitless possibilities. However, no vst support, you will need to rewire it to get the most out of it, terrible sound engine, again this can be solved by summing in a rewire host with a good sound engine, no recording, they make you by recycle if you want to make rex loops!

record, I have only used this briefly but it looks very promising. ssl desk, line 6 distortion, simple audio recording and editing, excellent 64 bit sound engine, built from the ground up to support multiprocessors, same routing abilities as reason, real wires make all the difference! Cons, no vst support, you will need reason as well to get the most of it, needs a dongle (when will they learn?)

cubase, dont know, apparently very good but who knows because it is currently uncrackable and there is no demo, and I flatly refuse to buy something without having tried it first, the cheek of it!

logic, many people love it, not me though! It is good value for money (If you can forget about the grand you just spent buying a mac!) because of all the plugins it comes with, it has very simple sidechaining, lots of useful features and gadgets, massive user base. Cons: you need a mac! It consistently does things the opposite way you would expect (how many applications have you used where you zoom in by pulling the mouse wheel backwards?) cumbersome audio editing

fruityloops (sorry, flstudio) terrible audio editing, bizarre user interface, like reason but without the wires, awful sound engine, you can tell a fruity tune from a mile away!

sonar, very intuitive if you have used acid extensively, I picked it up straight away, simple on the surface but can be extremely complex if you want it to be, very stable and streamlined, lots of high quality plugins and utilities, the console view is the best I have yet encountered, clip fx, clip envelopes, the bounce to clip function works how the acid one should, good automation implementation, excellent multiprocessor support, 64bit program, 64bit audio engine, bounce to track without bouncing bus, track, or master fx if you want, you can insert external fx into fx chains, phase buttons on soft synth buses, pretty much everything you see is customisable, including the menus, thats just off the top of my head.

Cons: No intelligent snapping like in acid, no automatic quick fades on clips, no on the fly audio editing, you have to stop the track, pitching samples has to be done via plugin, reversing samples is a bit sketchy, undo does not affect plugins or mixer changes.

Out of the lot of them I am leaning towards sonar, it does what every I want it to do without me having to find a workaround, but the cons I mentioned are big ones and they do leave me reaching for acid sometimes. The cons are mainly workflow issues but are still very annoying, particularly the undo problem and having to stop the trck to perform an edit.

On the subject of soundforge, I was going to say you definitely need it, but now I think of it, I don't really use it any more. You can perform any audio edits non destructively in acid, so no you can probably get by without it

Subject:Martin L

Reply by: Martin L

Date:9/11/2009 2:27:19 PM

Thanks so far for your replies.
I must say, your comments: "very buggy and unstable when you push it too far, poor multiprocessing engine, very few included plugins," really worries me.
I will wait and hope for more replies to this thread before I decide. Thank you.

Martin

Subject:RE: Martin L

Reply by: shakey

Date:9/11/2009 2:46:20 PM

you should definitely try the demo though, for simple band stuff it is excellent

Subject:RE: Martin L

Reply by: Bremen Cole

Date:9/11/2009 5:01:34 PM

Acid 7 is my favorite host. I simply love it. But.....

It is buggy. And sometimes the bugs are show stoppers. I actually like Acid so much that I do work arounds just so I can use it. You will record a midi VSTi track from live keyboard. Then out of the blue it will not play back. You have a good project going, shut down, start up the next day and the patches are different than you had before. Sometimes a VSTi will be playing a patch that you did not pick, and no matter what you do it will not change. Little things that will drive you nuts!

But.... I also have Reaper. Reaper will do everything Acid does (just not as easy with loops), is rock solid and I have never had a problem. But... I hate Reaper, it works, but does nothing to inspire me. I wish it did, but it simply does not. So for me, I do everything I can to complete a project in Acid, but will admit that many times I have to move it over in to Reaper to complete.

But, in your case, try the Acid demo, and the Reaper demo. Both excellent programs, and both will do what you need to do.

edit: In looking at what I wrote it is clear to me most of my "bugs" in Acid have to do with the way it interacts with certain VSTI's. I use Sylenth1 a lot and SFZ some, and seem to always have problems with project they are in. Interesting......

Subject:leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Martin L

Date:9/12/2009 12:15:15 AM

I have used MAgix Music Studio for years and it does everything ACID does too, as I understand, but it keeps on being unstable and like you said suddenly a midi intrument doesn't work at all....I guess it is bugs and it kills all creativity. I don't want another program with the same problems.

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Bremen Cole

Date:9/12/2009 1:37:41 PM

Martin, I just want to be sure I did not come across to harsh. The problems I have with Acid really are mostly related to this handling of a few odd ball VSTI's. Now, it is true that Acid should be able to handle them, since every other host I have owned or demoed can, but still it it not really a huge deal.

The work flow and "feel" of Acid just works for me. Like I said, try the demo and also try Reaper if you want..... The simple truth is for you to get what works for you.

Subject:RE: Martin L

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:9/12/2009 7:31:38 PM

For audio-only recording I far prefer Vegas.

Unless you need conveneient tempo shifting, loop manipluation, and MIDI, there is little to be gained from Acid, and significant functionality missing.

I have both, but use Vegas whenever I can.

geoff

Subject:RE: Martin L

Reply by: shakey

Date:9/14/2009 2:36:22 PM

True, it is a massive shame, but I have made the shift to sonar now. I've just had enough. Partly due to the bugs and partly due to the extensive lack of features. Sonar, has issues of it's own, no proper undo system for example and no quickfade edges, but these are small things compared to what it is capable of. The main thing though, is it's stability, speed of operation and composure under stress. The multiprocessing engine and audio engine are also big factors.

you say in your post geoff

"Unless you need conveneient tempo shifting, loop manipluation, and MIDI, there is little to be gained from Acid, and significant functionality missing."

the thing is that the people looking for this functionality nowadays go to ableton, acid has lost this customer base, and people looking for a pro daw go to sonar, cubase, logic or protools, even reaper has a bigger user base than acid

I'm sorry to say it, but unless version 8 brings a truly massive revolution then I don't see a longterm future for acid, it just isn't attracting new users like the rest of them. This forum is testament to this fact, there are barely 5 posts a day, sonar's forum by comparison has close to 1000.

Subject:RE: Martin L

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:9/14/2009 9:20:02 PM

Doesn't that simply mean 'more problems ' ?

;-)

geoff

Subject:RE: Martin L

Reply by: drbam

Date:9/15/2009 6:55:50 AM

"This forum will attract the users that have ISSUES. The users that have NO ISSUES with AP7 probably wouldn't be at this forum that much,am I right?"

Perhaps that is the case with this forum but it is definitely not the case on many other forums where users are engaged in robust discussions about tips, creative ideas, production processes and so on. In fact, the Sony forums are the only ones I frequent (out of about 8) where the focus is primarily on problems/issues/bugs related to the software.

Subject:leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Martin L

Date:9/15/2009 11:49:20 AM

Thank you all of you for responding to my question! very interesting indeed to read about your experiences with ACID Pro.
I will put some more time in doing research on the other DAWs available out there. So far, after reading through your replies and briefly checking the other brands' websites it seems Sonar is a good alternative, maybe the best. Actually, I wrote an email to the editor of Sweden's Studio magazine and asked him the same, and he replied it is a very diffcult question and much a matter of taste, too complext a subject to write an article in their magazine about it.
I use Vegas and I love it and had hoped that ACID would be the best DAW to complement my system but lets see.
Someone said something about ACID PRO v 8. Hope it will come soon and with many improvements. Unless it does Sony will probably lose many of their fans.
Martin

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Kennymusicman

Date:9/15/2009 1:42:12 PM

V8? Not for a long time - V7 is still pretty fresh on the market!

Also, if you want another source for Acid community - look at AcidPlanet.

In terms of best DAW - it very much depends on you....

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Cheye

Date:9/17/2009 2:15:07 PM

V8??? Can we get some fixes for 7 first?

Acid Pro 7 is very good! It is true that it is artist preference for choosing your DAW. My top 2 are...

Acid Pro 7 - Ease of use, creativity flow
Cubase 5 - Feature set and midi

Drawbacks

Acid Pro 7 - Stability and slow updates
Cubase - Slows me down creatively

I have to go with the flow, since I don't like to being distracted technology.

My 2 cents

cheye

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: kbruff

Date:9/17/2009 7:37:16 PM

Try as many as you can, the best thing to do is to buy an audio interface that gives you lite a version of software product that you may be interested in.

Multiple software combinations can be handy...

And mitigate the likely hood of a single point of failure, incase the software is not functioning properly.

FL -> ACID -> Sound Forge - CDA

or Reaper -> Soundforge - CDA

Etc.
Respect,
Kevin

Subject:leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Martin L

Date:9/18/2009 1:34:40 PM

So, it seems ACID is not very stable and not very advanced, but easy to use and has a nice workflow. Right?
Martin L

Subject:leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Martin L

Date:9/20/2009 3:00:22 PM

Does ACID have notation? If so, is it good?

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: pwppch

Date:9/20/2009 4:34:43 PM

Does ACID have notation?

No.

We make a fully function demo version available for download. The best thing you could do is to download it and give it a try to see if it has what you need.

Peter

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:9/21/2009 5:21:06 AM

Does ACID have notation? If so, is it good?

No notation in Acid. Sonar 8 (which I use and recommend for a full-featured daw) has rudimentary notation but not enough to really make a go of it. Notion 3 (coming out in a couple of days) is a standalone notation program that is supposed to work well with Sonar 8. There's a demo available of Sonar 8 available now and a demo of Notion by the end of the week. There's really none of the available daw software packages out there that have decent notation - most are just enough to whet one's appetite but no more than that.

Just watch if you decide to use Rewire with Notion (or any other notation program like Finale or Sibelius) in a 64 bit OS - it won't work because Rewire is only 32 bit. But all notation programs have MIDI output though.

Jack

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Cheye

Date:9/21/2009 10:34:53 AM

As far as stability goes with Acid Pro 7c it depends how deep you go into the program before you encounter bugs and or issues. We are awaiting an update to Acid Pro 7c hopefully in the near future. We know how long we waited for a Pro 6 update version that never came. Sony seems to be much better with their stability in Pro 7 and faster at updates this time around. I can't really say we are at optimum stability when you go deep into the program. I truly believe that Sony is working very hard at improving the next update. Many people on the forum have worked very hard in helping to report bugs and issues to move this great app along. Some of the items below are not bugs but issues that perhaps can be solved with input and feedback. We can make this Pro 7 amazing with teamwork. Thaks to all helping and who continue to help...

1. Acid randomly inserts midi controller envelopes at will

2. In some projects the mouse wheel becomes inoperable

3. In some cases notes can't be lengthened in inline midi editor

4. Drag and drop often clips ceases to work

5. Acid can crash when trying to delete buses

6. It is not possible to solo audio tracks when you have rewire audio coming into the mixer, you have to mute all the rewire tracks first

7. You can individually hide envelopes on bus tracks, but not on audio tracks

8. Bugs are contained within a project, not the host program, and if you open a clean project without first closing the buggy one, the bugs will be transferred to the new project.

9. Joining clips together is useless, because it doesn't take into account any silence you have in between them, or any edits you have made, it simply extends the first clip to fill the gaps

10. The sliced loop function in clip properties is handy, but it doesn't update the waveform on the arrange page, so hits still appear to be in the wrong place, even though you have quantised them

11. The space bar should start and stop playback no matter which window is currently selected. This is extremely frustrating if working with plugins, you have to click on the arrange page whenever you want to initiate playback.

12. when using reason rewired into acid, acid ignores the transport commands from reason and you have to go into acid to start or stop playback

13. Audio buses disappear from bus track window and don't reappear until they are moved before the fx sends on the mixer window

14. multi core support does not work properly with reason rewired

15. fx plugins stay active when track is bypassed, you have to physically bypass each one to free up cpu

16. you cant select and copy multiple envelopes with the envelope tool, you have to copy them one at a time

17. sometimes when you try to preview a sample with realtime midi turned off, playback stutters or crashes

18. amplitude modulation plug goes out of time if there is a gap in the region on audio track, but works fine on a bus.

19. Acid's graphical interface is very slow and inefficient at rendering waveforms

20. random blue squiggles appear on arrange page occaisionally, at certain zoom settings

21. when copying multiple clips duplicates are created behind them, and then if you copy the same section again these will be duplicated. These then intefere with the clips at the front by putting clicks at the start and end of each edit. I have had to go through an entire project, deleting 3 duplicate clips behind every clip because there was a click at every edit. It took me 2 hours. This is similar to a bug which was in version 2.

22. Playback stops while saving sometimes, and sometimes it doesnt

23. It should be possible to copy clips and sections of data from one project to another, like on logic

24. chop to new clip should apply to all selected clips, and render them to one easy to manage clip, containing any silence, fades, edits or pitch changes

25. If you click on a soft synth or bus track on the mixer, and then click on an audio track on the side of the arrange page, the soft synth or bus track will not be deselected, and any changes you make to one will be repeated on the other. This means that you can quickly mess up all the levels on the mixer if you don't realise they are both selected.

26. Acid will crash when you edit midi information near a tempo change

Cheye

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: kbruff

Date:9/22/2009 12:38:46 PM

Excellent post -- all I can say is: reaper, it really is shocking how capable it is for 5 MB large and 60 bucks in the pocket.

Subject:RE: leisbornmedia@bredband.net

Reply by: Cheye

Date:9/23/2009 5:04:37 AM

Yes, AP7 is an incredible app which has improved for sure. All it needs is continued modifications and updates. In my opinion every aspect of Acid Pro has improved from version 6 to 7 including customer service. Sony keep working on it!

cheye

Subject:ACID vs others

Reply by: Martin L

Date:9/23/2009 2:38:21 PM

It seems to me now that it's between Acid Pro and Sonar.
Acid Pro + and - :
+ it will blend in nicely with my Sony Vegas system
+ it does have some nice functions and workflow
- it doesn't have notation!! This is terrible. I took it for granted that it had. My current cheapo MAgix Music Studio has had it for years, and a quite good one too. I use it a lot. Perfect when you want to get a real violin, trumphet etc play what you just composed on the keyboard. Magix just prints it out like that. AP not.
- it seems to be a few years behind generally
- I prefer the grey interface as in Vegas 9, not the yellowbeige.

Sonar:
+ It is more advanced and have great features.
+ plenty of VST's and effects in the box
+ 64 bit engine
+ notation
- I am not familiar with it
- Slightly more expensive
- few or no professional studios use it, at least not in Sweden (correct me if I'm wrong)

About ProTools: Maybe the best but expensive to buy and expensive to keep up with. Guess it is the chioce for those who work with professional audio recording all the time and with big budgets.

Cubase: Expensive and not the best. Few pro's use it (or?)

Samplitude Pro: Too expensive. Ten times the price of its little brother Samplitude Studio but I am not convinced it is ten times as good.

If Sony produces a new version of Acid Pro (#8) with some really good improvements and notation I'll buy it and stick with the "famliy". If not, Sonar gets another customer from Sweden.

Martin

Subject:RE: ACID vs others

Reply by: shakey

Date:9/25/2009 7:49:10 AM

sonar has plenty of bugs and holes too, but in my case it wins on the simplicity of the routing system, the excellent load balancing and 64 bit audio engine, in built powr3 dithering and the fact that almost everything is customisable. customisable menus are brilliant, you can just get rid of all the options you dont use in the context menus, and move all the frequently used ones to the top.

on the subject of technologuy impeding creativity, for me it is the opposite. It is the lack of technology which impedes creativity for me, because it means I have to spend my energies thinking of workarounds rather than creating music.

good technology should not impede creativity, it should be there under the surface for you to discover when you need it, it doesn't need to get in the way of normal operations


I'm just tired of the sheer numbers of bugs in acid. The reason I'm on here today is because I just tried to rewire acid into sonar to do some wave editing, and every time I press play the whole view shifts sharply to the left, and then back again when I press stop.

This is a really annoying bug, but I can't even be bothered to report it now, they just don't listen. I have a pending bug report with sony at the moment, where I have sent them a project WITH THE BUG IN IT and they will not escalate it to development because they can't recreate it themselves, even though they can see the bug plainly in the project I have sent them.

so far, out of the 20 or so bugs I have documented, 2 have gone through to development and only because they were glaring errors which took 3 mouseclicks to recreate. I haven't got the time to do their work for them, I only did it because I was on summer holiday. Why should we be their guinea pigs, because they don't do enough testing. If I was paid to do it I would be happy to spend hours trying to accurately recreate bugs for them, but i'm not so I won't.

Sonar may not be perfect, but I would rather spend my efforts nagging them to improve it, because it is so much further ahead

Subject:RE: ACID vs others

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:9/25/2009 6:23:23 PM

Ever thought that maybe even just some of those bugs might be related to your system or factors/settings/shared-files from other applications or devices/drivers, as opposed to Acid ?

geoff

Subject:RE: ACID vs others

Reply by: Cheye

Date:9/26/2009 7:07:15 AM

Sorry Geoff many of us have also checked into the bugs/issues and we are experiencing them as well. I don't think we can keep hiding behind this slipscrean of complicated computer technology. There are bugs, they have been reported and it is up to Sony to try to fix as many as they can. Atleast they have fixed 2 of them and I can only hope they will continue to fix more to keep their users satisfied. Shakey has spent a lot of time documenting and reporting these bugs in an effort to improve an app he seems to like. I can't wait to see the fixed bug report for Acid Pro 7d whenever it comes. If it doesn't come, I will stop using Sony Products for sure. The update for 6 never came and I expect more updates for a brand new Acid Pro 7.

cheye

Subject:RE: ACID vs others

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:9/27/2009 6:50:42 AM

shakey said:
I'm just tired of the sheer numbers of bugs in acid. The reason I'm on here today is because I just tried to rewire acid into sonar to do some wave editing, and every time I press play the whole view shifts sharply to the left, and then back again when I press stop.

I replied (why can't we have a quote feature here?):
Sonar is not a good tool for any detailed wave editing. Everyone pretty much acknowledges that. Simple things, yes. Do you have Soundforge? I don't know if Acid can do this, but if you're in Sonar and want to edit a waveform you can do so by use of the Tools menu and open the waveform/track/whatever inside Soundforge, do your edits, save the file, and go back to working inside Sonar, all without having to close Sonar. Possible in Acid? I only have Acid 4, 5, and 6 but not 7 so I can't try with the latest version and report back. And as we all know just because a feature was in one version it may not be in the newest version (or even work the same way).

Jack

Subject:RE: ACID vs others

Reply by: shakey

Date:9/28/2009 10:06:20 AM

you misunderstand me, I meant audio editing in a broader sense, and besides anything you do in soundforge is destructive, which is why I don't really use it anymore

Subject:RE: ACID vs others

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:9/28/2009 7:19:54 PM

Only in that scenario when you Save the Acid/Sonar/Vegas/whatever clip, without Save As a different filename or location before editing.

Are you aware of an editor that behaves differently ?

geoff