Subject:native 64-bit?

Posted by: Mr. Farenheit

Date:6/7/2009 9:42:06 AM

Now that Vegas is native 64-bit, any word on SF or Acid?

Subject:RE: native 64-bit?

Reply by: Jace

Date:7/15/2009 3:33:03 PM

i'm very much interested in a 64-bit Sound Forge, myself. update or upgrade, either is fine.

Subject:native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues...

Reply by: Jace

Date:7/30/2009 9:31:59 AM

just more to think about...

i imagine that converting Sound Forge to native 64-bit is rather a complex issue since a lot of the tools are plugins. Every plugin needs to be updated/rewritten/recompiled as a 64-bit piece as well. There are probably issues with the legacy plugins and development end of life... look at the audio restoration tools... when were they last updated??

on top of that, there's the need to address 32-bit VST support in a 64-bit host, like Sonar does in Sonar x64. the bitbridge in Sonar is incompatible (fails) on MANY commercial and even MORE freeware 32-bit VSTs. So Sony Creative Software has to do:

1. Re-Engineer Sound Forge core application as 64-bit

2. Re-Engineer all the plug ins present in the Sound Forge package (many of which are probably licensed in part or entirety, which means revisiting licensing with third parties who may or may not still be existent, and all other related licensing hassles or replace these components with Sony-Developed equivalents that are 64-bit)

3. Provide a bit-bridge between the new 64-bit Sound Forge host and 32-bit VST plugins

4. Provide new features that justify sales on the new version (say, Sound Forge 10), providing a good "Return On Investment" for upgrade purchasers, new buyers AND Sony's own development costs!

it's not a trivial amount of work. i hope they've already been at it for a few years now because i am getting impatient in this slow 64-bit transition. i will be owning a new 8 core 64-bit machine with 12GB of RAM in a month or so and i want to be able to utilize all the memory and processing capacity in my existing software, including Sound Forge!

No doubt, Sony has put more effort into the release of Vegas 64-bit because Vegas provides content creation tools for Sony's own Blu-Ray format!! Sound Forge has no such marketing linkage and it is still IMO the best audio editor available on any platform (which is frustrating because i'm doing more stuff in OSX on Mac these days and would love to have Sound Forge in that environment instead of buying an inferior and more costly new product that i will have to learn from scratch like Bias Peak and Sound Soap... which have pretty but terrible GUI and cost way too much).

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues...

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:7/30/2009 1:59:25 PM

Apart from the number being bigger is there any urgent reason for SF would benefit from being a 64 bit app ? Would there be an actual performance gain given what SF does, as opposed to the other apps which are cpu-performance-realtime-intensive ?

Maybe my opwn usage is not as heavy/deep/intense as some peoples' requirements....

There would then presumably need to be two versions, 64 and 32, released at any one time ....

geoff

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues...

Reply by: Larry Clifford

Date:7/31/2009 1:14:18 PM

Jace,

It sounds like you will have a very nice new PC.

Are you buying one built by one of the manufacturers?
Which one?
Which model?

Or will you be building one custom built?

I also hope that a 64-bit version of Sound Forge (V10?) is made available that works with Vista and Windows 7.

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues..

Reply by: Jace

Date:9/2/2009 2:24:31 PM

first & foremost reason to go 64-bit: memory use. got more than 4 GB RAM? Got really large audio files to work with? YES? then 64-bit is important.

second: Lots of plugins are going 64-bit. you can't host 64-bit plugins on 32-bit software (iZotope's independent -not bundled- collection of products come as 64 & 32 bit).

third: precision math functions.

anyway ... Sound Forge 10 just came out. aside from the bigger number, i see very little modernization. updated iZotope bundle (still useless to me since i own the full products these plugs come from - why not bundle iZotope RX instead & replace the aging Noise Reduction 2.0 plugins?), integrated CD Architect (??) which would be nice if nothing was lost from CD Architect itself & if bugs were fixed, & the new event editing (which i still dont know, from the marketing, WHAT it is).

without a full product overhaul, i see no compelling reason to shell out over $200 for an upgrade. someone convince me otherwise. i would have rather waited for a fully overhauled 64-bit version than thisrelease as is. clearly my statements of how much work it is to bring the app into native 64-bit are on target. they've released a "refresh" version. nothing really new.

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues..

Reply by: Kennymusicman

Date:9/2/2009 2:57:26 PM

I'll have a go at (somewhat) addressing these...

1) At least running SF10 in a 64bit host means SF can have 4GB all to itself - whilst going native would be nice, for most people the difference is going to be negligable since most are editing songs / samples, and not an entire film soundtrack (dont get me wrong - I'm all for native 64bit everything!)

2) True. iZo are one of the leaders of the 64bit world.


4) The bundled version is great for those who don't have Ozone. NR2 is actually pretty decent - ok it's not the level of RX, but again, it will more than fulfill the needs of most people. Event editing - it's a workflow thing - kind of like the way you'd work with files in vegas - easy draggable parts that can converge / move around at will and autofade etc. It's actually pretty nifty. In terms of modernisation = it's still one of the best audio editors around. What would make it truly more modern?

5) No compelling reason for you. but...The eLastique stuff really makes a difference to me. That was the clincher for me. A million times better than SF9. And it's less than $200 :)
An update to native 64 is going to take a lot of work from a lot of manufacturers. Hopefully with Win7 we'll start to see a stronger shift from everyone

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues..

Reply by: Jace

Date:9/3/2009 11:16:04 AM

is the eLastique plugin not just one more non-Sony product filling in gaps in the overall product which will become another third party roadblock to 64-bit?

i'm not at all familiar with the event editing of Vegas so i have no idea in Sound Forge. Sony didn't provide any explanation or screenshots!!

the fact that Sound Forge is the best audio editor around & Noise Reduction 2 is decent for most general purpose use... those are dangerous invitations to complacency(sp??).

Modernizing... Do you remember that Acoustic Mirror used to have all of the impulses as presets when it first was released? The presets disappeared between Sonic Foundry & Sony. WHY? Why haven't they replaced them? It takes way more user effort to audition the impulses by importing tge wave files one at a time. i asked support. They told me i could create presets. NOT an answer. Why do they expect users to recreate them? That's work for the product manager to give the developers! They've left it that way for three versions. v10 the same?? It's unprofessional to leave that feature sloppy like that.

Also, algorythms for convolution have evolved over the years and it seems to me that Sound Forge's code hasn't been updated at all. There's been no change to existing plugins & features to enhance them over the last few versions. Stagnation of the product is setting in. Like how CD Architect is being slowly replaced by moving it's features into SF... Half done. Not finished.

It's how i felt when Sonar first released VST support & it was quickly realized that it wasn't native but a licenced plugin that adapted them, poorly.

Sony is telling me that they are resting on their laurels with the SF & CDA package. They're not dedicated to it. it's not important to them except for cashing in a little now & then. That's what version 10 tells me. they didn't even bother to explain the new features in their marketing. Just buzzwords & licensed 3rd party addons. that's life support, not innovation.

They've failed to sell me their latest version for various reasons. 3rd party addons are only as good as "their future in the product."

Cakewalk has made this mistake several times with Sonar. because the core product moved along more assuredly aside from the loss of the limited 3rd party addons (which lots of my old projects use & are limited to 32-bit Sonar only) Sonar has continued to grow & improve core functionality & GUI, so i stuck with it. not sure if it's the right choice for me at this point but i don't like the competitors' products more. Same with Sound Forge.

The only real competitor is Bias and their product is a mess, over priced & only available on Mac. Since i'm probably buying a dual CPU Mac Pro, i am open to changing my audio workflow (or sticking with Windows but on a Mac). Sony may have lost me here.

i'm looking toward the future of these products & really none of them are progressing. They're being complacent. stagnating. almost all of them. The hardware marches on but the software is lingering, not being redesigned for modern hardware & running in place.

i want an official statement of intent from Sony on Sound Forge. i won't get one. So i'm not likely to invest any more money so long as i can still get buy with version 9. It'd have to be a better deal than currently offered to give me incentive to upgrade to v10. Seeing real commitment to updating tge entire product by making it all native 64-bit would have given me the confidence i need. But all i see is a product that is mostly made up of unrefreshed 3rd partty content. Most of which looks frozen forever. iZotope i trust. not the rest. Give me more than 3rd party addons, Sony. Version 2 of the iZotope stuff is a given, NOT a new feature.

sorry for readability issues. i'm on an iPhone.

Update: i just saw the $149.95 upgrade offer. That's better. Still not sure though. "This one's perfect" they say. Hardly. They didn't update CDA at all. Now it's functionality is split between two products. Did they fix the vista scroll wheel bug found in this forum? Did the Acoustic Mirror presets get put back? i can only download the demo to find out, right? :-p

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues..

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:9/3/2009 11:54:31 AM

The only real competitor is Bias

Let's not forget Wavelab - which even it's now grandfatherly v6 incarnation still outpaces this new version of SF. CDA and all....

I have installed the new trial - but I really cannot see a huge reason to consider it. Much like what happened with v8 and v9...

Cheers!

VP

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues..

Reply by: pwppch

Date:9/3/2009 5:46:33 PM

third: precision math functions.

You can do 64 bit audio and the "math" in a 32 bit app. You do not need to be running on a 64 bit OS with a 64 bit app.

Peter

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues..

Reply by: MSK

Date:9/3/2009 9:43:41 PM

Jace -

Regarding the Acoustic Mirror impulses: It's true that these have not been updated in this release, but you can still use them. They're available by scrolling to the top of this page, select Downloads > Acoustic Mirror Impulses. They're all there waiting for you to download and use.

Regarding this release, I've spent a good deal of time with it and believe that this is a great step forward for this application. Event Editing allows you to do non-destructive on the fly real time editing. It's easier to understand once you dive in and play around with it for awhile... so download the trial and take a look at the documentation and open up some sample files to experiment with. Demo's free and a fairly small download.

Regarding CD Architect... Most of these features are now available in Sound Forge. I personally prefer to have this capability in one single application and not have to travel back and forth. Besides, why invest valuable and expensive development time into CD Architect. Delivery for audio is rapidly moving beyond compact disc. I haven't purchased a CD in a few years now and I am an avid consumer of music.

Subject:RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues..

Reply by: Jace

Date:10/24/2009 6:45:34 PM

"Subject: RE: native 64-bit... thoughts on the issues..
Reply by: SonyPCH
Date: 9/3/2009 8:46:33 PM

third: precision math functions.

You can do 64 bit audio and the "math" in a 32 bit app. You do not need to be running on a 64 bit OS with a 64 bit app.

Peter"

oh yes, you're right, but the CPU runs less efficiently (it drops to 32-bit mode and there are less registers being used when there could be potentially faster processing of commands using the full set) the OS and software in question is less efficient with the abstraction and thunking involved.

possible does not equal proper methodology.

but you're right. i just want native. it's been long enough. adoption of 32-bit happened so fast i had to replace my computer to use software. 64-bit... the CPUs have been largely underused for years now.