Subject:Automation problems

Posted by: KevinJackson

Date:6/13/2009 7:38:17 AM

Hi!

I'm using NI's Kore Player but when I record a MIDI file, a bunch of automation envelopes (General purpose 1-4 and Controllers 20 - 26) go nuts creating a stack of points and seemingly making random envelopes which makes the sound file unworkable!

Any ideas as to what could be going wrong? I'm not sure if it's an issue with Acid, Kore or my MIDI keyboard (which I disabled to check and the problem still occurred).

Any suggestions welcome!

Kevin

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: KevinJackson

Date:6/15/2009 7:44:28 AM

EDIT: Thanks for supplying the correct link Peter, I appreciate it. Are there instructions anywhere on how to correctly put up a link on this forum? Thanks!

Here's an update with a <a href=http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pu0XXn_Szi2rXldHOvzzrA?feat=directlink/>screen shot</a> detailing exactly what's going wrong for me! I'd be very grateful if anyone can tell me how to stop the envelopes from writing themselves!

Thanks!
Kevin

<a href=http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/pu0XXn_Szi2rXldHOvzzrA?feat=directlink>Click me for a screen shot of the problem</a>

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: pwppch

Date:6/15/2009 10:29:15 AM

The links you provided are not working. The link should be this

It appears that the Kore player is sending this information when recording. I do not know why.

I am NOT able to reproduce the problem when playing back only. If you could provide me a specific (step 1, step 2, step 3...) example of how to reproduce your problem, this would be very helpful. The simpler and more detailed you example the better.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: KevinJackson

Date:6/16/2009 12:14:49 AM

G'day Peter and others,

Here's a step by step description leading up to the problem. I have posted some new screen shots too - the links directly from picasa are:

http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/aW4lKs9Cid87xX6msxwyFA?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/wEPs-o6yUomaW2cYfm8tZQ?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/XjI8Hep-F8clPdd4WCTpIA?feat=directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/OY8-i2uH9IaOu5N6nAKa1Q?feat=directlink

Sorry about the clumsiness - I'd love to use short links but can't get it to work yet. Any tips welcome.

Steps:
1 File > New
2 Insert MIDI track
3 Insert soft synth > Kore Player
4 Select "Talkie Blaster" within Kore Player
5 Enable MIDI Merge Record
6 Arm for Record (Track 1; MIDI track)
7 Record...
8 Play (no problem)
9 Configure soft synth parameter automation
10 Check boxes beside "Talkie Blaster:Sound Variation Morph X"and "Talkie Blaster:Sound Variation Morph Y"
11 Under Envelope beside "Talkie Blaster:Sound Variation Morph X"and "Talkie Blaster:Sound Variation Morph Y", click No > Insert Envelope - No changes to "Visible"
12 Track Properties > Output Settings tab, check "Show all controllers", check Controller 24 and Controller 25, under Envelope change No to Visible
13 Add points in envelopes 24 and 25 and make variations.
14 Play (no problem)
15 Move loop area to the right for new recording.
16 Set metronome count off
17 Record... (AH FINALLY the problem begins! I thought I wasn't going to be able to reproduce it!)
Description: General purpose 1-4 and Controller 20 magically appear and start tracing their own envelopes all by themselves.
18 Record...
19 Play some MIDI notes with my keyboard (the problem appears again and now Controller 23 has appeared)
20 Stop
21 Track Properties > Remove all Envelopes & Reset all Envelopes
22 Play (unwanted sound variations still appear)
23 Track Properties > Uncheck General Purpose 1-4, Controllers 20-25 (Although I want to use 24 and 25 eventually)
24 Play (the sound variations remain even though the envelopes have been reset)
25 Track Properties > Recheck General Purpose 1-4, Controllers 20-25, Make envelopes Visible.
26 Play (although all envelopes have been visibly reset, the sound variations continue as if they were still there)
27 Add new points and envelope variations to Controllers 24 and 25
28 Play (seems to work ok)
29 Record... (at start of loop region)
30 And the extra controllers are doing their thing again. So this is the problem - I don't want them tracing envelopes at will. What am I doing wrong?

Thanks a lot for your help!
Kevin

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: pwppch

Date:6/16/2009 7:42:22 AM

Thanks for the details!

We are investigating the problem. As soon as we figure out what is going on, I will post back.

Thanks
Peter

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: pwppch

Date:6/16/2009 9:24:00 AM

After a quick look at this, it appears that Kore is sending the Synth Parameters back to ACID as CC msgs.


Two different Solutions:
1. Set the MIDI output of Kore Player to none, the problem goes away.

2. Set the MIDI Input source on the MIDI track from Auto to the specific keyboard device. This prevents the MIDI output of Kore Player from being recorded.

It seems kind of strange that Kore is echoing back. I have not seen this behavior before.

The Count off case looks to be a bug, but either of the above solutions prevent this behavior.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: Cheye

Date:6/16/2009 11:34:11 AM

Hi Peter

Will there be another update for Acid Pro 7c to d? A shot in the dark for a time line?

Keep up the good work Peter

cheye

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: pwppch

Date:6/16/2009 12:21:11 PM

Will there be another update for Acid Pro 7c to d? A shot in the dark for a time line?

I never guess at such things.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: KevinJackson

Date:6/17/2009 12:57:49 AM

Hi Peter!

Thanks so much for looking into this and for your suggestions! How do I

1. Set the Midi output of Kore Player to none?

I had already tried to do it as this picture shows for the 8 Kore Player knobs,

http://picasaweb.google.com.au/lh/photo/zzGDzHnh3hizVbu_ZYheaw?feat=directlink

but as soon as I click another knob and click back to the one I've changed it says MIDI out again! Is there a way I can change this in ACID as the host program?

Also, what are CC msgs?

I'm also taking your suggestion of

2. Set the MIDI Input source on the MIDI track from Auto to the specific keyboard device. This prevents the MIDI output of Kore Player from being recorded.

Thanks very much for that!

Kevin

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: KevinJackson

Date:6/17/2009 1:36:35 AM

Hi again Peter,

I'm now trying this within an existing project with no success. It seems that once I manipulate controllers 24 and 25 (controlling the X and Y sound variations in Kore Player) all of the data from General Purpose 1-4 and Controllers 20-23 (which are also altered by 24 and 25 of course) seems to be permanently embedded in the track at that point - I can't record or place any MIDI file at that spot because the envelopes seem to remain invisibly, even when I reset them, delete them or redraw them.

Strange.

Thanks for your help!
Kevin

Edit: As a further update, I have found that if I delete the soft synth from the troubled track altogether, reload it and start again I am so far getting a fresh slate and the envelopes I draw seem to work as expected.

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: pwppch

Date:6/17/2009 6:25:51 AM

but as soon as I click another knob and click back to the one I've changed it says MIDI out again! Is there a way I can change this in ACID as the host program?

No. ACID has no control over what Kore Player is doing here.

Also, what are CC msgs?

Continuous Controller.

Peter

Subject:RE: Automation problems

Reply by: pwppch

Date:6/17/2009 6:31:53 AM

I can't record or place any MIDI file at that spot because the envelopes seem to remain invisibly, even when I reset them, delete them or redraw them.

I really don't have an answer for you. I cannot repoduce this behavior.

Your best solution is to use synth bus envelopes and route the track to the specific external device. The reverse is also true. Don't use synth bus envelopes and use CC envelopes on the track.

This is the cause of the problem. Kore should not be sending CC msgs for envelopes on the synth bus. I consider this a bug in Kore.

I have emailed NI, but I honestly don't expect a response from them.

I am curious if the full version of Kore allows for this behavior to be controlled/configured. I don't have the full version of Kore available, so I cannot check.

We will continue to look into the problem and hope that NI communicates with us.

Peter