Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more t

Posted by: drbam

Date:5/15/2009 6:44:17 AM

Increase the level via the volume slider on the track.

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more t

Reply by: JeffreyPFisher

Date:5/15/2009 8:26:13 AM

And/or normalize the track to -0.3 and then you'll probably need to reduce the level with an envelope ...

--jpf

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:5/15/2009 9:28:43 AM

You want MORE than 6dB gain?!?! Yikes! You must be working with some really low level audio source material.

- You might try normalizing first - if you cannot re-record at a higher signal level.

- The trim control on tracks and busses will allow you to increase beyond 6dB. The trim will affect the entire envlope.

- You can also route the track to a sub bus and use the sub busses' gain to go beyond 6dB.

- You can send from the track to a sub bus as well to increase the over all gain.

Peter

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: imac

Date:5/15/2009 3:01:46 PM

usually i run out of automation gain when i have not set the main volume accurately to begin with, but by then i have long and complex auto curves so it's not easy to raise that one section that needs more than +6.
if there are no dynamic plugins on the track i would cut the event at the section, normalize, and drag the event level down to suit.

or if it's already full scale in the event, i would choose a plug in and automate it's output gain. eg air eq has +15 output (assuming there is still headroom at that point)

or if i can't do these, select the whole tracks automation, drag it down holding ctrl by eg 6db, then up the track trim +6, which will leave the whole track with same gain and automation but now more auto gain available

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:5/15/2009 4:42:17 PM

I would "Open a Copy in Sound Forge" and do some very basic preprocessing there, whatever it takes to get a good basic bed. When you save, it will automatically open the new take in Vegas for editing, but the previous take(s) will still be there if you change your mind later and want to revert or try again.

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: imac

Date:5/15/2009 4:51:00 PM

or simply duplicate the track, deleting the events so there are no doubles. then you are free to change the main gain on new track

this only works if there is not heavy plugin use and therefore cpu issues if you're already redlining it..

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:5/15/2009 5:48:03 PM

"or simply duplicate the track, "

I was thinking in terms of Sound Forge's superior creative controls, in the context of the original question. Such as, +20dB gain control, configurable normalization with peak and RMS scanning, the ability to automatically create takes, which I find quite useful, etc. . . .

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:5/15/2009 7:13:32 PM

If he can't get enough gain by pushing the track slider right up, and pulling the V envelope righ up, especially if the track is alreaDY NORMALIZED, THEN THERE IS SOMETHING VERY ODD WITH THE SOURCE EVENT's (oops capslock) dynamic range.

Either compression, re-recording or rescusitation in an editor may be necessary.

geoff

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: imac

Date:5/15/2009 11:15:45 PM

sorry i was not relating my post to your comment, was just an addendum to my first post

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more t

Reply by: CDM

Date:5/18/2009 1:41:00 PM

Why on earth are people giving him a hard time about the amount of gain he needs? Good god, 6dB is not a lot of gain! It's approximately a doubling of audio level in perceived loudness, so what's the big deal? How does anyone know what kind of material he's dealing with here anyway? I raise TONS of material by more than 6dB. It doesn't mean the source is bad at all. A lot of people I know record VO at -18dB (or less) just so they have tons of headroom for dynamic range without the use of compressors. So, if they then wanted to raise that to 0dB using 18 dB of gain, would that make them crazy? we do this all the time with Limiters and compressors, in different ways. Also, film audio is often recorded at very low levels and when doing post there are myriad spots that need boosting - something that might be offmic, etc. etc.

Anyway, here's what I do:
- I often split the area around the area where the gain is low and then normalize just that event to get the maximum amount of gain - then I'll lower the event gain by dragging down the event gain handle at the top of the evnt.
- if you have sound forge, add the Volume plugin and use automation to add another volume envelope's worth of gain. I think that gives you another 12dB

good luck

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: newhope

Date:5/19/2009 7:24:08 AM

You want MORE than 6dB gain?!?!

Peter

One simple example of when more than 6db of gain is necessary.

When receiving audio recorded by professional sound recordists the levels are often quite low as they usually work off a -20dBFS=0VU on steady state signals like tone and peak to -10dBFS. Given a dialogue sequence can have quite a siginificant dynamic range from whispering to shouting, if the loudest signal is -10dBFS then the whispering can get quite low. Most professional recordists won't use compression in the field, peak limiting perhaps, but not compression.

The ability to adjust gain without using normalisation becomes very important when dealing with source audio of this nature.

A simple answer is to use a plug-in on your audio track and have all the settings nulled except the output gain. If you set the plug-in to be prefader and adjust the output gain then the envelope gain on the track should be additive. An example of this would be using the track compressor with 0 threshold and 1:1 ratio settings but with the output gain adjusted as required. No compression will be applied but the gain will be lifted.

In ProTools I use the Trimmer plug-in but have often used an EQ plug-in without an EQ curve set just the gain adjusted.

By the way Digidesign introduced 12dB of gain on their tracks back in ProTools 6 as an optional system wide setting. Previously it had only been 6dB.

New Hope Media

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: imac

Date:5/19/2009 2:34:21 PM

i remember when vegas track volume was only +6, that was changed to the +12 we have now.

one reason i like the automation at +6, is that automation for me is usually in many small changes, and if the range were greater then there would not be enough resolution to visually drag the handles by small amounts

this is an important time issue because it's much faster than having to type in every node

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:5/20/2009 5:45:36 PM

"The ability to adjust gain without using normalisation becomes very important when dealing with source audio of this nature. "

Why the aversion to normalisation ?

geoff

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: newhope

Date:5/21/2009 6:10:22 PM

Geoff

I don't like automatic adjustment of levels across a clip.

My experience with normalisation in other programs has been that it has attempted to bring all levels across a clip, not just the peak level, to a maximum, thereby flattening the dynamic range. If the process is simple level adjustment to a set figure, like the GAIN plug-in in ProTools which gives a plus or minus XdB adjustment, then I'll use that process but from experience have avoided anything called 'normalisation'.

In general I'd prefer to be able to manually control levels, I use an automated mixing console with Vegas and ProTools so I'm not limited to just adjusting levels via editing envelopes only on the screen, though I do edit the envelopes as well where that's more efficient.

Of course I'm not referring to the using of compression and limiting here which I do use as required by the project.

one reason i like the automation at +6, is that automation for me is usually in many small changes

My apologies for my confusion here.

In ProTools automation and track level are one and the same thing so +12dB is it.

I was forgetting that in Vegas they aren't but, as I use a mixing console for automation in Vegas I'd be quite happy with 12db of automation gain.

Steve

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:5/21/2009 7:21:47 PM

Yer what ?!!!

Normalisation as in Vegas timeline applies a linear gain to bring the peak level up to FS. All levels are treated equally and does NOT affect dynamic range or apply compression.

You may be being confused with 'normalisation' in other applications/plugins where OTHER than linear gain is applied with compression built in. Which are naughty.

geoff

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: pwppch

Date:5/21/2009 7:28:29 PM

I was forgetting that in Vegas they aren't but, as I use a mixing console for automation in Vegas I'd be quite happy with 12db of automation gain.

Essentially with the Trim and volume Envelope you have +18db of range. Perhaps if the envelopes showed the full range value it would be more useful. That is, if you have your trim at +3db, the envelope would read +15dB at max range.

I understand what CDM wrote, and agree with him. There are time when the raw media you are given needs to be dealt with and it is just too low to work with. I didn't consider the working producer/engineer have many strange things land on their desk and can't just do a second take.

I don't know how much we can provide with out making it really wanky or twiddly by default. Though with the mix console view you can set up for some really long faders that would let you use the full range easier.

Perhaps a static gain pad value that a track and/or an event can have set. So if you want something with a gain above 18 db, you can do it.

Something to think about here.

Peter

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:5/21/2009 9:10:35 PM

1) Open Copy in Sound Forge
2) Make your volume changes or normalize. Repeat if absolutely necessary.
3) Save

The changes will be saved as a new take in Vegas.
At the risk of repeating myself, have I really missed something here?

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: newhope

Date:5/21/2009 9:57:53 PM

You may be being confused with 'normalisation' in other applications/plugins where OTHER than linear gain is applied with compression built in. Which are naughty.

Geoff... yes I obviously am, as I had some nasty, though reversible as they weren't destructive, experiences with Cool Edit Pro, now Audition, and have just kept away from any plug-in named 'Normalisation' ever since.

If it is just a gain adjustment in Vegas, where I have also avoided it because of past experience elsewhere, then I'd opt for using it as well.

I'll have to give it a try....doh!!!

have I really missed something here?
Musicvid

Only the possibility that BoVideos may not own Sound Forge... not every Vegas owner does.

Steve

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:5/21/2009 10:04:42 PM

Only the possibility that BoVideos may not own Sound Forge... not every Vegas owner does.

Every Vegas owner should, IMO.

Subject:RE: Way to increase envelope volume by more than 6db?

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:5/21/2009 10:10:53 PM

You may be being confused with 'normalisation' in other applications/plugins where OTHER than linear gain is applied with compression built in. Which are naughty.

They're only naughty if they're not fully configurable.