Subject:6.4d: Should VSTi track Volume Envelopes WORK?

Posted by: JPW

Date:4/24/2009 12:22:03 PM

Volume Envelopes (plus the volume slider and other envelopes, for that matter) do not affect the output at all on all of my SOFT SYNTH clips: not on Kompakt, not on Kore Player, not on any.

I am aware that the VSTi BUS can be controlled and even automated--that works fine--but I wish to have control of the individual MIDI channels/instruments so that their envelopes work just like on a WAV clip.

They DO function properly on "MIDI Device" instruments, like the old Roland VSC which is not a VSTi.

What's worse, rendering out will not allow the old VSC synth at all--it is ignored. That leaves me in a complete Catch-22: rendering only uncontrollable VSTi synths, or no synths at all. This leaves me with the same original dilemma:

HOW can I control the Volume envelope on VSTi MIDI tracks??

Subject:RE: 6.4d: Should VSTi track Volume Envelopes WORK?

Reply by: Jayendra

Date:4/24/2009 4:45:41 PM

fx automation - right click insert fx evelope - choose the paremeter you desire - then select which type of automation - read, write, latch, etc

Subject:RE: 6.4d: Should VSTi track Volume Envelopes WORK?

Reply by: JPW

Date:4/24/2009 8:26:55 PM

Yes, thanks for the advice, only that's already in place. In other words, I can clearly see the blue Volume envelope line across the VSTi MIDI clip, and can even automate it by riding the slider (and seeing the nodes stack up in a "waveform" shape). The PROBLEM is that nothing ever affects the output volume. I can even disable and re-enable the Volume "line" but it's a no-go.

It's as though there is a defect in the VSTi synth connections. Like I said, the old Roland VSC MIDI plugin (non-VSTi) DOES affect the volume level properly . . . only it won't render AT ALL. The VSTi tracks render, but at a fixed volume.

I've even right-clicked the VSTi bus's automation FX icon and set it to "Enable All" just in case, but that has zero effect. It's weird that the Sony supplied VSTi synths and all others seem immune to simple volume changes, either on-the-fly or automated.

I'm losing money by the hour here :-(

Subject:Developing news: SOME VSTi tracks now work

Reply by: JPW

Date:4/25/2009 9:10:13 PM

Apparently not all of my VSTi Soft Synths are acting the same. I've been able to get a newer copy of EDIROL's Virtual Sound Canvas (VSTi, no longer the "MIDI Device" version) to function properly with the Channel Volume envelope.

My next step is to look into the Controller Maps for the other VSTi Soft Synths. I have a feeling that those settings were never correct or else got corrupted along the way, since the newly installed instance of the VSTi VSC works.

I hope this helps explain the route that's been necessary to get to a rendered output. I'm glad to say, the VSTi version of VSC does render properly, so I have that as a fallback for my MIDI arrangements. Next in line is Kompakt for ACID and Kore Player. Stay tuned. . . .

Subject:RE: Developing news: SOME VSTi tracks now work

Reply by: Adji

Date:4/26/2009 8:50:50 AM

Hey man, not all MIDI volume envelopes can be automated, I have discovered this too. Some VSTi's respond well to the volume envelope on the MIDI track, some do not work at all, its strange, I think its more to do with the VSTs themselves than ACID. One way around it is too automate the actual instrument, instead of the midi track.
Click 'view' then 'show bus tracks' and automate the correct synth bus track as you would the midi track, this should work.

Subject:RE: Developing news: SOME VSTi tracks now work

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/26/2009 6:15:28 PM

Many VSTis do not use standard MIDI CC mappings for Volume and Pan. ACID allows you to override what a VSTi uses so that the volume and pan faders and envelopes work.

How to do this is covered in the ACID Help and User's Manual.

Peter

Subject:RE: Developing news: SOME VSTi tracks now work

Reply by: JPW

Date:4/26/2009 9:56:34 PM

Adji--

Thank you for your reply, which give me reassurance that I'm not alone in wrestling with this issue. I agree that it's more likely the VSTs that are at fault, but I was expecting ACID Pro to step in to remedy that automatically, somehow, similar to how it passes/fails VST instruments upon scanning for them.

Also, you're right about automating the bus track. Unfortunately I nixed that in the second paragraph of my first post.

Good luck and stay tuned for some workarounds I'm trying.

Subject:RE: Developing news: SOME VSTi tracks now work

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/27/2009 6:59:28 AM

VSTs do not report how they map CC's to anything. If they did, I assure you that we would support this functionality. The same goes for VST automation parameters.

I have yet to understand why a plug-in vendor determined that CC's for Vol or Pan should not follow the MIDI standard. That is why we added the ability to remap any CC msg to vol and pan in ACID.

ACID allows control templates to be built and saved so that it is once you do it for a specific plug-in you do not have to do it again.

Some plug-ins also permit you to remap internal to the plug-in.

Basically, VSTi is left open to interpretation.

VST 3 does expose some more intelligent host to plug-in communications, but VST 3 has not really caught on. This would not help with VST 2.x plug-ins of course.

Peter

Subject:RE: Developing news: SOME VSTi tracks now work

Reply by: Adji

Date:4/27/2009 7:27:10 AM

JPW - Sorry mate, somehow i missed that entire paragraph haha.

Subject:RE: Developing news: SOME VSTi tracks now work

Reply by: JPW

Date:4/27/2009 11:25:59 AM

Peter--

Thank you; I spotted your message(s) and am a registered user so I would have the "Quick Start" manual enclosed in the retail package. Unfortunately there is no obvious answer for my specific problem, even in Help. I'm quite bit better versed on the video side of production compared to dealing with MIDI parameters--this is an educational process for sure.

Anyway, I see in "Track Properties | Output Settings" for a typical Kompakt MIDI track, the "Controller Maps" dropdown menu results in headers for "Controller," "CC#," "Def," "Envelope" and "Curve Type." But in the line item for "Channel Volume" (and "Pan") there is just a strange node/envelope icon and no apparent way to remap the CC. Right clicking on the Controller item to "Restore Default" doesn't appear to make a difference.

I am able to do things like change the "Curve Type" to something like "Switch" for total on/off function, but the Synth output level still never follows the control and just stays constant.

Has anyone else been able to override the CC mapping on a VSTi so that the volume and pan faders and envelopes work properly?

Subject:RE: Developing news: SOME VSTi tracks now work

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/27/2009 12:31:09 PM

Has anyone else been able to override the CC mapping on a VSTi so that the volume and pan faders and envelopes work properly?

- First determine what the VSTi uses for Volume (or Pan) CC.
- Open the MIDI Track's "Track Properites" page.
- On the Output Settings tab, select "Controller Maps" from the drop down.
- Locate the CC that your VSTi uses for Volume. It is not visible, check "Show all controllers" located at the bottom of the page.
- Right click on the CC msg and select "Use as Track Volume"
- You should also rename the CC so you know that it has been mapped to volume.

The track volume slider on the track now uses that CC msg for all volume control.

Peter

Subject:Getting warmer. . . .

Reply by: JPW

Date:4/27/2009 2:13:50 PM

Peter--

You make it sound easy, and that's much appreciated. We are definitely on the same menu.

It's clear that right clicking on any line item OTHER than the "Channel Volume" or "Pan" (which are the only two with the distinctive "node/envelope" icon instead of a checkbox) give the options "Use as Track Volume" or "Use as Track Pan."

The tough part is interpreting the instruction "Locate the CC that your VSTi uses for Volume." How? There are many controllers that appear for my Sony-supplied Kompakt track . . . and it's daunting to someone like me (a video producer) to choose which of the many could possibly relate to Volume if it isn't the obvious "Channel Volume" one (CC# 7).

Let's say I take the "Balance" (CC# 8) controller since it didn't have a checkmark and check its box. Then I right-click it to "Use as Channel Volume." I set its Default value to 100 and make the Envelope visible. I'd like to think that its newly appearing colored line across the track would now control the Track Volume since the Controller name now has the "node/envelope" icon instead of a checkbox. Well, nothing happens to the track's channel volume when I move the colored line. "Pitch Bend" works, but the Volume still doesn't.

Remember, the EDIROL VSC VSTi *does* allow functioning Channel Volume (and Pan) envelopes, and also uses CC# 7 for the Channel Volume controller entry. It's not a great feeling to think I may need to check over 120 other Kompakt CC#s to see if another one is the correct value for Channel Volume.

Your patience has been great with this, Peter, since these tweaks demand very explicit changes. Thanks again,

-John

Subject:RE: Getting warmer. . . .

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/27/2009 7:30:45 PM

The tough part is interpreting the instruction "Locate the CC that your VSTi uses for Volume." How?

You don't understand. ACID lets you adjust to what the Softsynth
needs. As I stated, ACID cannot determine what a particular soft-synth uses. It makes a guess to use General MIDI settings, but not all soft-synths follow this.

You need to either configure the soft-synth to listen to Volume on CC #7 or determine what the soft-synth uses for volume and tell that to ACID.

Let's say I take the "Balance" (CC# 8) controller since it didn't have a checkmark and check its box. Then I right-click it to "Use as Channel Volume." I set its Default value to 100 and make the Envelope visible. I'd like to think that its newly appearing colored line across the track would now control the Track Volume since the Controller name now has the "node/envelope" icon instead of a checkbox. Well, nothing happens to the track's channel volume when I move the colored line. "Pitch Bend" works, but the Volume still doesn't.

What you did here was to tell ACID to sent CC#8 for volume. You did not tell Kompakt to listen to CC#8 for volume. I agree, that to do this for every possible CC msg would be a major trial and error pain until you uncovered how Kompakt is configured.

There is an easier way:

Read the soft-synths documentation and it will tell you what CC msg it uses for volume or how to configure it to use CC#7.

For Kompakt, do the following:

1. New Project in ACID.
2. Add an instance of Kompakt. The UI for Kompakt should appear.
3. Click the "options" button in Kompakt.
4. A Dialog will show up. Locate and check

USE STD. CC#7 / CC#10
VOLUME & PAN
5. Close the Kompakt configuration dialog.
6. Close the current ACID project. (No need to save it.)

This will configure Kompakt to listen to the standard MIDI CC msgs for Volume and Pan.

This is covered in the documentation for Kompakt. What is not in the Kompakt manual is that this change will not take affect until you remove Kompakt and insert a new copy.

Yes, MIDI can be daunting, that is why reading the documenetation for all things related to MIDI is critical when you are just starting to learn MIDI.

I recommend reading the full ACID Pro 7 user guide (the one you can download from our site here.) It covers much of the functionality I decribe here and discusses how MIDI works in ACID.

Hope this helps.

Peter

Subject:A-ha. . . .

Reply by: JPW

Date:4/27/2009 10:31:05 PM

Peter--

Thanks to your following through with this thread, I do understand now. The detail your provided in your last message hit the nail on the head. In fact, the solution in Kompakt WAS as simple as selecting the option button to "Use Std. CC#7 / CC#10 Volume & Pan."

This was the crucial info I needed all along. The theory on MIDI is also useful, but the key to getting my production back into business was within that obscure button all along. I was able to jump every hurdle on my own up to that point, leveraging ACID's features to get all the results I needed, until that one roadblock.

Reading through the manuals would have helped, had I realized exactly what I needed. I blame myself for assuming that Web searches and one other forum would bring up the answer in context but I never did find another post or search engine hit that was as specific to the problem as your steps for activating that button in Kompakt.

It's time to get back to work now. Thank you one more time.

-John