I would go with progressive if that's what your source is. A little bit of magic has to be performed if this is changed either way.... and magic is never quite as good as the real thing. I believe dvd players will add the pull down for interlaced display if need be.

There is a thread just started in fact with some interesting stuff in it:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=627666&Replies=18

Sorry for the lengthy post above. What I really want to know is...

What should my Project Properties template be set at?

And if I wanted to encode a project as Main Concept M2T what settings should I use for optimum results (for archival purposes)?

Then when I encode for NTSC and PAL DVD (no BD yet). What should I use for my encode settings?

Reply by: Laurence


I don't actually shoot the video but I believe my biz partner uses Sony HVR-Z1U cams.

Reply by: blink3times


Lol, I've read that thread and it just made me more confused!

If it's the Z1u, then the source is interlaced.

If it's the Z1u, then the source is interlaced.

If the source is interlaced then why does Vegas show when I click on the clip properties both in the media and general tab that my source is 25 fps progressive?

First, the default templates and the time line project settings have nothing to do with the actual clip properties. You control the project properties and templates where as the clip properties are written in stone.

Second, if you don't know where the source file originated, then I would take Vegas at its word when it states the clip properties. I have yet to see Vegas lie about clip properties. But you could always download a free program called Gspot which will independently confirm/deny it as progressive

Assuming vegas is telling the truth I would customize your project properties to reflect a progressive clip and if I was in your shoes I would try to avoid changing to interlaced on the output. Almost all modern dvd players are equipped to deal with a progressive disk

Is this the Gspot link?
http://www.headbands.com/gspot/download.html

I don't want to download some virus instead. ;)


edit
Oh nevermind Gspot doesn't recognize M2T...
"Non-AVI File - Type Unknown"

That looks to be it.... or I should say one of quite a few download sites

Lol, googling "Gspot" brings up some... umm... err... interesting results. :)

Here's a link to a newer version of Gspot that does recognize M2T...
http://www.headbands.com/gspot/v26x/index.htm

Unfortunately it does not tell me if the clip is progressive or interlaced. All it says is "FileType: MPEG2 Transport Stream" and "Mime Type: video/mp2t".

Even if the footage from the Z1 is progressive there's no real harm in editing it on a 50i T/L. I hope it isn't progressive because if it is you'll have some issues converting it to NTSC.

One certain way to check if it's progressive is to look at it on the T/L at Best / Full. If you see any interlace artifacts on motion then it isn't progressive.

I've never used the Z1 in fake progressive but I'm pretty certain the camera never flagged it as progressive. Are you certain this is camera original footage?

Bob.

The only harm in editing 50p on a 50i timeline (or 30p on a 60i timeline) comes when you do any kind of a resize. An interlaced resize splits even and odd lines into separate pictures, resizes the two, then folds them back together again. This avoids all sorts of squiggles on horizontal movement. Unfortunately doing this on a progressive image cuts the resolution about in half.

And ironically, when you decide to do full HD to Blu-ray in the future you'll find that 25p and 30p are NOT in the Blu-ray spec, so you'll have to convert to interlaced at that point.

Really ironic since those progressive rates work fine on SD DVDs.

Reply by: farss


I am not seeing any artifacts or interlace combing when I preview Best (full). So does that mean the 50i has been converted to 25p in cam or during capture? And what should I set my Project Properties to since there isn't a preset template for HDV 1080-25p (1440x1080 25 fps)?

And if it is indeed progressive footage, should I be setting the Field Order to None (progressive scan) and the Deinterlace Method to None?

And if it is indeed progressive footage, should I be setting the Field Order to None (progressive scan) and the Deinterlace Method to None?

Yes to both of these questions. Actually the field order isn't so important since all that affects is the order the lines are displayed. Progressive mode will show all the odd lines, then all the even lines one fiftieth of a second later, while interlaced mode will show the lines sequentially . You'll never notice the difference. I would just set it to progressive mode for consistency.

Setting the deinterlace method to "none" is important however. If you choose a deinterlace method (either blend fields or interpolate: it doesn't matter), what Vegas will do is separate the even and odd fields, resize them separately, then fold them back (even and odd lines) into the new resized image. This won't look horrible, but you will be losing vertical resolution. With no deinterlace method selected, Vegas will resize the image as a single picture which will look better.

See http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=628333&Replies=15this thread[/link] for more information on this.

Thank you Laurence!

Next question...
Since this is 25p video, then obviously the framerate needs to be set to 25fps in the Project Properties, yes?

I'm confused by this only because I've heard in the past that Sony cams "fake" progressive by doubling the Framerate to 50fps and then actually interlacing the video at 25fps... so you are getting twice the image information into each frame. And now that I've typed that... it makes no sense whatsoever! Maybe someone else could explain it better.

The way the Z1 "fakes" progressive is to average the even and odd lines then double them (not that that will make too much more sense). In other words, the progressive is half the vertical resolution that it would be if it could shoot true progressive or exactly the same as if you threw one field of interlaced resolution away to deinterlace the interlaced image. This is what many people call "frame mode". The only advantage to shooting 25p frame mode over shooting 50i and deinterlacing is that you make things a little easier on the mpeg2 compressor. If it was me, I would shoot 50i since to give me both 25p and 50i options on render and also that would allow me to do slow motion here and there including on the 25p render. The 25p render from the 50i source resolution would look the same resolution wise.

The way the Z1 "fakes" progressive is to average the even and odd lines then double them (not that that will make too much more sense). In other words, the progressive is half the vertical resolution that it would be if it could shoot true progressive or exactly the same as if you threw one field of interlaced resolution away to deinterlace the interlaced image. This is what many people call "frame mode".

No, it doesn't and it isn't.

Frame mode involves a different method to read the CCDs that does not involve a regular interlaced scan, no fields are thrown away, and the final resolution is halfway between a progressive readout and interlaced readout.

From a dvinfo.net post: "A given line in field A = the green lines from that field plus the average of the adjacent red and blue lines in field B. A given line in field B = red and blue lines from field B plus the average of the adjacent green lines in field A. All on a pixel basis of course."

Hope this helps.

Sorry, I meant to say "Cineframe mode" instead of "frame mode". The point is that you are throwing away one field of interlaced resolution when you use this mode on the Z1 as is explained http://www.adamwilt.com/HDV/cineframe.htmlhere.[/link]

From the Adam Wilt article:

Cineframe 30 on the 60i FX1 (Cineframe 25 on the 50i FX1E, or either one on the Z1 depending on its field rate) works just like the slow shutter on the FX1/Z1 and on Sony's SDTV DV cameras: it throws away one field and doubles the other. The resulting image has half the motion resolution of the normal interlaced mode and appears like a progressive frame, but it only has a single field's worth of information, so its vertical resolution is somewhat degraded, and diagonal lines may look "steppy" or "jaggy".

Adam Wilt has probably forgotten more than I will ever know about video. Still, I'm really wondering if you're not more right than he is, about CF being averaged across odd and even lines, rather than just throwing away every other line.

Cineform has an article on Cineframe (sigh):

http://www.cineform.com/products/TechNotes/SonyHDVSupport/CineFrame.htm[/link

It explains the very substantial difference between CF24 and CF25.

As much as I admire Adam Wilt, I do believe I am right this once.