Where the ?#^!@ is 0db!

brettsherman wrote on 7/24/2000, 7:10 PM

I just got my mix set up so it just peaks at 0 db. Perfect,
or so I thought. After saving it to a wave file and burning
a CD I was suprised to find how quiet it was. Then on
further investigation with Sound Forge XP I discovered the
wave file I created wasn't even close to peaking.

I know there are various interpretations of where 0 db is
in the digital world. But this is my gripe. Vegas' meters
are set up like 0 db is maximum amplitude with anything
above it showing up as a "clip". That's typically what red
highlights mean. But in reality there is plenty of headroom
above 0. In this situation the meters should show above 0
up to the clip level. And then only show the clip
indicators when there is a true clip. But they don't. So
where does clipping occur? +20db? +10db? It is important to
know this kind of thing.

Comments

PipelineAudio wrote on 7/24/2000, 9:04 PM

Brett Sherman wrote:
>>indicators when there is a true clip. But they don't. So
>>where does clipping occur? +20db? +10db? It is important to
>>know this kind of thing.

OBSCENELY IMPORTANT

where is zero when you pan a track in vegas? where is zero when a
mono track is panned to both sides?
if nothing needs to be changed, why IS it changed?

CDM wrote on 7/25/2000, 9:04 AM

Although I agree that occasionally I have had the feeling that Vegas
was "screwing" with my levels, there are a few things you have to
bare in mind: when you pan hard left or hard right you get a 6dB
increase in level. That is a fact. It is due to the perceived
attenuation in the ear and is, I believe, what occurs on a Mackie
mixer as well... Not absolutely sure about that, though. I AM sure
about the 6dB. This has caught me by surprise MANY times. So, if
you're going to pan hard kleft or right, be sure to bring that bus
down in level by 6dB.
Also remember the signal path... all of the things in the mix make a
difference - effects, eq and routing. Now, if you have 6 busses that
all peak at 0dB( and I DON'T mean that your fader is set at 0dB but
that your levels actually HIT 0dB) what happens when you mix to one
stereo mix? I'm not really sure - maybe Peter can give us a more
detailed explanation of how Vegas handles the "bouncing".

Aaron Carey wrote:
>>
>>
>>Brett Sherman wrote:
>>>>indicators when there is a true clip. But they don't. So
>>>>where does clipping occur? +20db? +10db? It is important to
>>>>know this kind of thing.
>>
>>OBSCENELY IMPORTANT
>>
>>where is zero when you pan a track in vegas? where is zero when a
>>mono track is panned to both sides?
>>if nothing needs to be changed, why IS it changed?
>>
>>

PipelineAudio wrote on 7/25/2000, 4:31 PM

Charles de Montebello wrote:
>>Although I agree that occasionally I have had the feeling that
Vegas
>>was "screwing" with my levels, there are a few things you have to
>>bare in mind: when you pan hard left or hard right you get a 6dB
>>increase in level. That is a fact. It is due to the perceived
>>attenuation in the ear and is, I believe, what occurs on a Mackie
>>mixer as well... Not absolutely sure about that, though. I AM sure
>>about the 6dB. This has caught me by surprise MANY times. So, if
>>you're going to pan hard kleft or right, be sure to bring that bus
>>down in level by 6dB.

One of the things I ALWAYS do when messing with a DAW is check
transparency. I want to know that if a signal comes in, it can come
out...UNCHANGED
Now the only way to get a signal back out of vegas in a multi I/O
setup, discretely, is to pan it.
and to change the volume...would seem to destroy transpancy...Im
gonna have a Prism digital scope in a few days and I am gonna check
EVERYTHING

brettsherman wrote on 7/31/2000, 10:53 AM

I'm surprised no one from Sonic Foundry has answered my question.
This is the bottom line.

I'm using only one stereo buss. I have a number of songs, I set them
all so they peak at 0 db. I export to wave files. I open them up in
Sound Forge XP. Now if Vegas were doing it's job properly, if I
Normalize the file, it should remain unchanged because the peak is
already at 0db. But guess what, Normalize increases the volume of the
file. This means that Vegas is not saving 0db at 0db. What makes
things worse is that the peaks of the different songs are at
different levels. It seems like the more tracks a song has, the lower
the volume.

What is going on here? Certainly there has to be a reliable way in
Vegas of knowing what the wave output is going to be. It's a problem
because if the wave files come out quiet and I have to normalize
them, then I've lost dynamic range and added noise. I want to be able
to save a clean, full volume file from Vegas but can't seem to
accomplish that.

Could someone from SF please explain how Vegas sets the level when
you save to a Wave file. Also is there a workaround so that I can get
a full volume Wave file out of Vegas.