Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Posted by: erikd

Date:9/23/2008 10:33:26 AM

If your not careful, it might be a sadder day if you go to PPro. I own Vegas 8 and I own CS3. I choose Vegas and for me, its not close. I can't take PPro seriously because it is the Crash Master of the Universe.

Erik

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: risce1

Date:9/23/2008 10:59:58 AM

thought you left a long time ago,, or keep trying to .....anyway best of luck

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: TomE

Date:9/23/2008 11:33:20 AM

Anyone know what happened to Ultra?

I dont see it in the new stuff. You can thank Adobe for taking another idea and murdering it in the back alley.

TomE

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: CClub

Date:9/23/2008 12:50:06 PM

"Ill probably be selling off my Vegas license now."

C'mon, Patrick, you've done some nice posts here, but don't lower yourself. I chide my grade-school children for taunting their friends like that when one of them gets a new videogame. CS4 certainly appears to be a nice product, but why come here and treat it like a new toy that you think everyone else wants? Some do (I'm drooling myself), but not everyone wants it or needs it. Especially the way you presented it.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: dibbkd

Date:9/23/2008 1:02:11 PM

I don't use many Adobe products, but it seems like CS3 just came out? Or is it just me.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: baysidebas

Date:9/23/2008 1:21:32 PM

No, it's just about a year now. Remember, tempus fugits, not only that but time flies...

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: Cliff Etzel

Date:9/23/2008 1:21:47 PM

Specs for installing PPro CS4 - aka BLOATWARE:

*10GB of available hard-disk space for installation; additional free space required during installation (cannot install on flash-based storage devices)

WTF! For an NLE with Encore???

Never ceases to amaze me...

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 2:46:15 PM

And why are we putting a competeitor's link on a vegas board???

Just for the record... the last time I tried PP (the trial), it crashed more times in an hour than I could count.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: Cheno

Date:9/23/2008 2:51:25 PM

"And why are we putting a competeitor's link on a vegas board???"

Last I looked, quite a number of people use Adobe products as a companion to Vegas.

I use AE / Photoshop daily with Vegas. Nice to see it being talked about.

As for the trials crashing... early trials of CS3 were bugged both on Mac / PC - oodles of issues. Very stable as a full release now.

cheno

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 3:10:09 PM

"Very stable as a full release now. "

Yeah... right ;)

PP is total rubbish

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: Xander

Date:9/23/2008 3:47:22 PM

I use AE, Photoshop and Vegas all the time. With every release, Adobe make it more tempting to switch to PP due to the tighter integration between apps.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 3:48:42 PM

And I use Photshop and Audition... great programs. But PP stinks

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: farss

Date:9/23/2008 4:05:10 PM

Crashes about the same but more elegantly than Vegas at the moment, what more can one say. If your hardware is dodgy they now both crash.
More importantly though I've never had Ppro or even the really old versions of it mangle my output like Vegas manages.
Even more importantly Adobe seem to understand video, I've never had to wrangle video levels, they just get it right. No wonder Sony's camera division recommends Ppro and their PC division ships the stripped down version on their products. Why would they support a NLE that out of the box makes their cameras look bad. Heck, Vegas 8.0b even managed to get the audio wrong out Sony's XDCAM EX and still cannot deal with Sony's PDX10's audio.
Seems to me too much effort has gone into Vegas playing catch up instead of keeping to what they know best and fixing the bugs / design flaws.
I'll add rather personal comment. For me Ppro and my Decklink card has always worked despite SCS claiming "driver problems". At times the only way I could continue working was thanks to Adobe or else reverting to earlier versions of Vegas and BMD's drivers. Again even more to the point, having installed the latest BMD drivers Ppro comes up with the correct presets, Vegas doesn't i.e. Ppro is easier to use and users are less likely to get things wrong. This was back with CS2. Who knows, 2 years later Vegas might one day catch up with this ease of use.
I mention this on a Vegas forum with the best of intentions. The good folk at SCS need to get out of Maddison more and have a profound look at the rest of the world. Just because some of us are using a competitors product doesn't mean we're not still buying your products as well, so far. A lot more transparency would go a long way to not give us a reason to stop buying your products. If you cannot address the valid concerns of the advanced users here and your product support people continue to treat users like fools you are in serious trouble.

Bob.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: MUTTLEY

Date:9/23/2008 4:42:37 PM

I agree with the previous, p@mast3rs put up or shut up.

Please do sell off your Vegas license so you can stop posting here and telling us how the better half lives. I really don't give a crap. For God's sake why do you keep slumming?

Broken friggin record.

- Ray
Some of my stuff on Vimeo
www.undergroundplanet.com

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 4:50:37 PM

"Crashes about the same but more elegantly than Vegas at the moment, what more can one say. If your hardware is dodgy they now both crash."

I just burned my 9th blu ray disk since owning my Blu Ray burner. I haven't had ONE crash with Vegas. My last time line included 811 events (HDV), transitions, cartooner effects, color correction, pro titles, and lots more. On render I upconverted to 1920x1080 and exported as M2V with a AC3 file Render time was just a little more than 9 hours with my quad nailed pretty much at 100%. Not ONE single crash... not ONE single glitch. The end result was just under 2 hours of pure beautiful HD

To the other extreme... on my PP trial... I couldn't even get out of the starting gate with a simple avi test strip without crashing every 10 minutes.

I repeat.... PP stinks

Vegas rules.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: ReneH

Date:9/23/2008 5:29:56 PM

i second that! Vegas rules! No crashes for me either.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 6:23:27 PM

Showing your true colors are you Patrick?

What do you expect? You put a competitors link up, and knock Vegas all at the same time.

You think you're going to get treated well??

You might want to edit that post.... people get banned for that.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 6:48:37 PM

"He was the one who came at me, "

But that's not true. You came at Vegas users with this thread. People (me being one of them) are a bit insulted

You don't see this?

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: ushere

Date:9/23/2008 6:49:09 PM

cs4 - fey!!!

amiga has just brought out os 4.01 - yeah baby - it's gonna knock the socks off cs4, avid, fcp, and vegas.....

you wait, i hear there's a new video toaster in the pipeline.

can't wait,

gonna dump vegas right now and wait for it!!!!

leslie

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: AtomicGreymon

Date:9/23/2008 7:01:39 PM

I bought the CS3 Master Collection about a year ago (first time using anything other than Photoshop), and I've only had about 1 or 2 crashes each from PPro and AE in all that time (and none since I installed Vista, ironically)... personally, I've found both to be quite good complements to what I've wanted to do in Vegas. And Encore is also a pretty decent program,as well, for DVD Authoring.

I'll definately be upgrading to CS4 by Christmas.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 7:34:44 PM

".....and Adobe offer COMPLETE workflows that Vegas CANNOT compete with. "

And i completely disagree. Not that Adobe software is all bad... as I've said I use audition and photoshop and enjoy them to no end... but PP is absolutely useless. No surround sound (unless they just added it lately). No smart render. The color corrector won't work unless it crashes at least 3 times first.... etc. The worflow in that program is absolutely silly. Your best bet would be to buy CS4 and kick PP straight into the garbage can.....THEN.... maybe you'll have something to be proud of.

And please.... don't even talk to me about Apple The definition of TOTAL hypocrisy is.... APPLE.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: MUTTLEY

Date:9/23/2008 7:39:53 PM

Let me be clear, I have nothing against you on a personal level p@mast3rs, honestly I wish you nothing but success and hope CS4 is everything you want it to be. What I take issue with, and quite frankly am sick of, is the pointless incessant bashing of Vegas when it seems you have no real interest in it any longer. You've made it quite clear in countless posts that it's not for you, you hardly ever use it anymore, and that you’re going elsewhere. You’ve taken every opportunity to bash it. I'm amazed you can't see how this would get old. It's like going on a Mac forum and telling everyone how much Mac's suck cuz you use Windows and trying to point out every fault with Mac when you don't even use one anymore. Cool, you use CS4, Vegas sucks, were a buncha noobs for using it, we get the point. I don't know if ya think your doing us poor unsophisticated folk a favor by coming on here and spreading the word but, speaking only for myself, I don't care. Can't ya just let it go? And the "friends" you still have on here, are they really benefiting from your insults, put downs, and advocating other software? Doesn't seem like a real buddy keep the friendship alive kinda thing to be doing.
Again, if you don't like Vegas, fine, don't use it and move along. I personally love it, it works for me just fine and dandy. I don't have any more issues with it then I've had with any other piece of software from audio aps to video games, to Windows itself. All I'm trying to say is that, whether or not your intention, your posts have come to be insulting and straight up condescending to those of us who like Vegas, and your coming on here and starting a thread bragging about CS4 and how your going to drop Vegas just comes off as, well, snotty. Sorry if you can’t see that. I don’t hate ya man, just annoyed.

- Ray
Some of my stuff on Vimeo
www.undergroundplanet.com

P.S. In general I have no problem at all with people having constructive criticism of of Vegas, pointing out it's shortcomings, bugs, faults, or way's it can improve, I want Vegas to get better as well. There is a difference to me however between that and people just going on pointless endless tirades and just knocking it.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: AtomicGreymon

Date:9/23/2008 7:43:28 PM

And i completely disagree. Not that Adobe software is all bad... as I've said I use audition and photoshop and enjoy them to no end... but PP is absolutely useless. No surround sound (unless they just added it lately). No smart render. The color corrector won't work unless it crashes at least 3 times first.... etc.

The surround sound thing is definately true. I was surprised when I found out you could only encode to stereo AC3 with PPro and Encore, and the 5.1 encoder was an additional $300 purchase. Needless to say, I was glad that I already had VP8 at the time Even if I only used Vegas for that, it would almost have been worth the purchase price. However, I also tend to favour it for rending MPEG-2 for a DVD, even if I"m authoring in Encore. Its more intuitive interface makes it much easier to use when doing the final composition and rendering.

Not sure about PPro's color correction, but After Effects CS3 came with Synthetic Aperture's ColourFinesse2 plug-in, and that seems to work rather well.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 7:50:42 PM

"I was surprised when I found out you could only encode to stereo AC3 with PPro and Encore, and the 5.1 encoder was an additional $300 purchase."

Yes... well that's Adobe's answer to a COMPLETE workflow.... a piece here and a part there.... put enough parts in the box... charge a bit more for some extras... and POW... a complete workflow.

Kinda' reminds me of Pinnacle Studio.... buy the base program and then spend an additional lord knows how much for license keys to these transitions and those effects and the dd5.1 and the.... You slowly bleed your wallet to death

And vegas is the one with out the complete worflow????

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: Spot/DSE

Date:9/23/2008 8:08:25 PM

Different take on the matter....been using CS4 for quite a while now. Has some very nice features, the voice to text is sweet, no doubt. It's going to revolutionize the industry, IMO.
There are problems, too, just like any other software that gets as large as CS4 Production Suite is. Takes a couple hours to install the 11GB worth of stuff, and that's with me leaving out the Korean, Japanese, French, and many other language translators. Otherwise, I installed it all.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/23/2008 8:42:17 PM

"Takes a couple hours to install the 11GB worth of stuff,"

That's absolutely stunning. 11 gigs and 2700 dollars later.... and no AC3 encoder. I shake my head in disbelief.

Yeah.... complete workflow alright.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: AtomicGreymon

Date:9/23/2008 9:08:10 PM

Blink, do you know for a fact that no AC3 encoder is not included? Have you installed it? 2700 would be for the ENTIRE collection that includes Print, Web, and Video. Nice way to spin it there bro.

No saying for sure with CS4. However, I do own the complete CS3 Master Collection (print, web and video), and the most PPro CS3 can do natively is stereo AC3 through a plug-in Encore. 5.1 AC3 encoding requires an additional $300 purchase from Minnetonka.

This isn't a criticism of CS3 on my part, I'm just answering your question. Since I have both VP8, Sound Forge 9 and the CS3 apps, the lack of native 5.1 encoding doesn't really bother me.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: MUTTLEY

Date:9/23/2008 9:25:41 PM

p@m, with all do respect your missing the point. While I have no issue with you being disenchanted, frustrated, irate, whatever, with Sony or Vegas, your not taking it out on them your taking it out on the community buy going on about it ad nauseam just like your doing AGAIN in this thread. Furthermore you give to little credit to other, apparently, editors in general as surmised in your statement " ... all have users who REFUSE to admit that another NLE..." Just how the hell do you know that's what their thinking and who are you to try to browbeat them into submission? You act as though it's denial and ignorance instead of a personal preference and your the only enlightened one. Do you go on fan sites of actors/bands/teams and tell them why the people they like suck and how much better other actors/bands/teams are? Reall, c'mon man.You seem smarter than the argument your putting forth. You want me to admit that other NLE's are better then Vegas, okay cool, you win, they're way wayyy better, and I'm kinda an idiot for using the one I like. Please keep up the negativity, nagging, whining, and keep making the same arguments over and over and over again, eventually you'll convince the rest of these ignorant heathens as you have me.

- Ray
Some of my stuff on Vimeo
www.undergroundplanet.com

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: farss

Date:9/23/2008 9:29:05 PM

And what's $300 in this game. I spent more than that on a B&W filter for my EX1. Most post houses would spend that and more in a day for a decent barista. Blink really needs to get a grip on the realities of working in this game. We plonked down nearly $2K for Prospect2K that works in Ppro and AE but not in Vegas. Compared to using HDCAM SR it's the bargain of the decade in this game.

Perhaps I should mention that a part of that 11GB isn't code, it's nice to have stuff like stock photos, fonts and training material.
When you look at what's in that 11GB code wise Vegas and the rest of the SCS offering isn't in the same book let alone on the same page.
In reality if you costed out Vegas + SF and all the addins that still don't get you remotely close to what came with CS3 the costs aren't that different. And I still wouldn't have Illustrator, Photoshop, DV Rack, Printed Manuals, a very nice box, test charts and Ultra.

Bob.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: John_Cline

Date:9/23/2008 11:52:07 PM

Am I going to buy CS4? Yes, I've owned every version since v1.0. However, no matter how many features they cram into CS4, Vegas will remain my favorite NLE. There are just some things about Premiere that simply get in the way of a speedy workflow. I do use Encore, Photoshop and After Effects all the time.

p@mast3rs, since you're never going to use Vegas again, perhaps it's time you leave the forum. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: deusx

Date:9/24/2008 1:03:49 AM

How is this a complete solution when it doesn't even include a DAW, which Vegas already is?

And they are dumping too many apps in there that basically do the same thing, just because they have them after MMedia purchase.

In the end, like with FCP suite, if you want a suite full of 1/2 assed apps for video production, this is it. If you are serious you stick with Vegas and a real compositor like Fusion or nuke.

It's truly embarassing that Vegas alone can do more than their entire vido/audio part of the suite. ( flash and web part are a differnt story )

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: apit34356

Date:9/24/2008 2:21:37 AM

"I was a finalist in my district for educator of the year." ? With "Listen asshole, bitching here" great communication skills, ......gee....., have you read your school district's professional conduct standards? Most high income nieghbors' school districts have adopted very strict Internet rules because of teachers/students/sex or teacher's conduct on the Internet reflecting back on the school. In the Midwest, currently, student Internet use at home is being "reviewed" if there is a complain----- which is way over the top in my view. So, you may want to delete your last few years of posting if teaching is important. to you.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 3:05:11 AM

"And what's $300 in this game. I spent more than that on a B&W filter for my EX1. Most post houses would spend that and more in a day for a decent barista. Blink really needs to get a grip on the realities of working in this game. We plonked down nearly $2K for Prospect2K that works in Ppro and AE but not in Vegas. Compared to using HDCAM SR it's the bargain of the decade in this game."

Bob,
An extra $300 isn't the issue. People here are talking about a complete workflow..... it's not. How can you possibly sell a package like this and leave out AC3?? It's on just about every commercial disk out there. It's a big part of Blu Ray.

As far as throwing money around goes.... there are FAR more expensive professions than this, but regardless to that, some people have big budgets... and some don't. That's not just true in the editing world.... but all over.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 3:12:28 AM

"Blink, yes, Adobe offers a complete workflow. Can Vegas import layers from a Photoshop file without having to save those layers out separately from PS?"

This is your definition of a complete workflow.... A program that can import from Photoshop??

In my book that would be called program integration..... and for the price you're paying for this package I would FULLY expect that.

If you can't produce a standard 5.1 surround disk from CS4... then it's NOT a complete workflow is it..... I mean it's not like surround sound is something special these days.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: megabit

Date:9/24/2008 3:15:39 AM

I am relatively new to this forum (as I am to the "serious video" in general), and certainly don't consider myself a professional (rather a hobbyist who tries to achieve as good results as possible, just like in doing anything else in my life). But I must say this thread (as well as a couple of others, emerging after the latest Vegas release) make my yaw drop right down to the floor.

I've been a professional in CAD/CAM for over 20 year now, and believe me threads like these would be closed/deleted by any of the major player's forums (Computervision, Moldflow, Delcam, Unigraphics, Autodesk - to name a few I worked for).

Just my $0.02 .

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: PeterWright

Date:9/24/2008 3:38:20 AM

Hey guys, if you're talking about good value - check out the current SCS offer:

Vegas Movie Studio
DVD Architect Studio
Acid Music Studio
Sound Forge Audio Studio
Photo Go (photo management software)

$149.95 the lot - I know we ourselves don't now need them, but for anyone starting out, it's a fantastic package.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 3:45:23 AM

@megabit

You got it. This entire thread is off-base and I frankly am amazed it along with its author is still here. I guess Sony hasn't gotten around to cleaning up yet today.... either that or nobody has pressed the ABUSE button

It's a competitor's link along with a post that was specifically design to press the buttons of Vegas users.... something that Patrick's been going out of his way to do for quite some time now.

But hey... since the thread is here, I sure don't mind talking about Adobe's short-comings!

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: farss

Date:9/24/2008 4:26:21 AM

"I mean it's not like surround sound is something special these days. "

Actually just having the tools doesn't mean you know how to use them. The number of posts about it would back that up.

There's one vital point that has been totally overlooked here.
Adobe's efforts to gain serious traction helps us and Vegas.
At the moment it could well become a one vendor show, with Apple taking the prize. That's not good for us or Vegas's future. I'm pretty tired of apologising to clients for my choice of LNE. When they start to hear of more than one then there's room for more. That's good for all of us. Think about it.

Bob.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 5:10:57 AM

Operator error and incomplete packages are 2 totally different things. Patrick says that cs4 is a complete workflow.... and it is not. You can throw all the excuses up on the board you can, twist logic left and/or right of center, scream "hail mary's", run around in circles, attempt to divert attention with examples of program integration.... etc, etc....

But at the end of the day, that $2700 you spent on a "complete workflow" is in FACT..... incomplete. In my book Blu Ray burnng is totally useless without AC3

A one vendor show? Avid already tried that.... didn't go. There are options and always will be. Avid was on top, now it's FCP..... someday it will be another. That's how it works.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: apit34356

Date:9/24/2008 5:23:01 AM

"But at the end of the day, that $2700 you spent on a "complete workflow" is in FACT..... incomplete" Blink, you can bet the farm that Patrick didn't spend $2700 if he can buy it at the educator discount or have the school buy it! Which is the smart thing for him to do if he isn't doing commercial work as outline in the EULA.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 5:32:11 AM

And if you can get a deal on a product then Hey... all the power to ya. All the money he saves can be turned around and spent on making the workflow complete ;)

Of course from what I understand (maybe wrong... third party info) the AC3 add-on at an additional $300 is a separate entity and doesn't integrate very well. Geezzz.... so much for Adobe's level of program integration

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: baysidebas

Date:9/24/2008 5:38:02 AM

I"m really tired of the invidious comparisons put forth by some members here extolling the virtues of competing products as if they were the end-alls to productivity. I'm a long time user of Vegas and, although I currently have the CS3 Master Collection installed on both my office and home computers , and which is provided to me by my "day job" employer, with CS4 coming soon, I am driven right up the wall on a daily basis by the workflow deficiencies in the apps.
I'm not going to discuss PP as I use Vegas for video exclusively, but I will mention just a couple of instances of bad app design in their desktop publishing flagship product InDesign. I wasted 3 hours yesterday trying to set default preferences for one of the dialogs. I could find no reference in the help files nor any menu choice until, quite by accident, I exited the module I was working in and, almost miraculously, the menu choice materialized. So remember, if you want to set the default, you must not be in the module you want to set the default for. Right, that makes sense. The other instance is something lacking that Vegas does so well that I've come to expect from other apps. In one of the dialogs there's a choice for either a preset function or a custom setup. This in a combobox dropdown list that offers only the two choices [wouldn't radio buttons serve that choice much more efficiently?] One would expect that a dropdown list would provide a multitude of choices, particularly user defined presets [as Vegas does on most of the customizable screens]. But no, while the dialog offers user defined settings for over 6 parameters, there's no save mechanism to help one reuse commonly needed settings. It's almost as if the developers intended to do so, from the choice of using the combobox, but just forgot to include the save button. And these two examples just scratch the surface, there are many more frustrations that
I come across in using these "tightly integrated" apps on a daily basis.

So I continue using Vegas for my video work and thank the folks at Madison for a pleasant user experience. Now, if i could only figure out [and fix] why the slide crossfade stopped working on my main machine [CTL, ALT, drag over crossfade displays the cursor icon for it, but the crossfade doesn't move] that started on 8b and persists under 8c, I'd be a most happy camper.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: daryl

Date:9/24/2008 6:13:45 AM

TomE, Ultra comes packaged with the "Adobe Master Suite". It has improved over the original Ultra, great keys.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: deusx

Date:9/24/2008 8:03:11 AM

>>>"And what's $300 in this game. I spent more than that on a B&W filter for my EX1. Most post houses would spend that and more in a day for a decent barista. <<<

Serious post houses would not use CS4 at all.

Serious post work means Fusion or Nuke. CS4 is a sort of dump everything into one suite, but ONLY Photoshop is a top app. The rest are at best hobbyist level.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: John_Cline

Date:9/24/2008 11:37:09 AM

Blink, I'm not taking sides in this "discussion", but I should mention that Encore does have an AC3 encoder. Making Blu-ray discs with AC3 audio in Encore is easily accomplished.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: jabloomf1230

Date:9/24/2008 12:09:08 PM

I'd hardly call After Effects, "at best hobbyist level".

I'm beginning to wonder who all these "serious" people are.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 12:17:36 PM

"Blink, I'm not taking sides in this "discussion", but I should mention that Encore does have an AC3 encoder. Making Blu-ray discs with AC3 audio in Encore is easily accomplished"

Agreed.... but i believe that's the fake AC3 (AC3 stereo not 5.1)... or at least that's what I have been told. Don't know first hand.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 12:21:00 PM

"I'd hardly call After Effects, "at best hobbyist level". "

Ae is good. Personally I have no complaints against it at all. It's not a full package on its own... but then it was never really meant to be. AE is a great side hitch to Vegas..... MUCH better than PP.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: kairosmatt

Date:9/24/2008 12:40:10 PM

"Serious post houses would not use CS4 at all"

I believe the BBC uses all Adobe Products, including for video post work.

Also, many people would say the same thing about Vegas.

kairosmatt

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: AtomicGreymon

Date:9/24/2008 12:47:24 PM

Agreed.... but i believe that's the fake AC3 (AC3 stereo not 5.1)... or at least that's what I have been told. Don't know first hand.

It is stereo, but I'm not really sure that makes it "fake" in any sense of the word beyond an inflammatory one. The AC-3 format is simply defined as having up to 6 discrete channels. I believe you'll find stereo AC-3 tracks on many Criterion DVD releases of older films, and there's nothing fake about that audio.

It is an unfortunate limitation; but as others have said, for any production company that requires 5.1 AC-3, $300 probably isn't an extraordinary expenditure.

Besides, since Adobe is saying so much about Blu-Ray support in CS4, maybe you should be denouncing the lack of Dolby Digital Plus or TrueHD, and DTS-HD encoding in there. Of course those are all still quite expensive.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 1:10:39 PM

"$300 probably isn't an extraordinary expenditure."

Absolutely right. No argument there.

But then how do you work with AC3 (5.1 descrete tracks) in an NLE that wasn't designed to do so? Just because you spend an extra $300 on an AC3 encoder doesn't fix the lack of the ability.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: John_Cline

Date:9/24/2008 1:34:33 PM

The fact of the matter is that Vegas is a considerably more versatile NLE than anything else out there. There are any number of ways to do something in Vegas, but with Premiere, FCP and Avid, you do it their way or you simply don't get it done. There is nothing that can touch Vegas' audio capabilities and one thing that just bugs me no end about other NLEs is you can adjust parameters in any filter in Vegas while the timeline plays, in anything else, once you click on anything outside the timeline, they come to a screeching halt. What a waste of time!

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: AtomicGreymon

Date:9/24/2008 1:54:46 PM

But then how do you work with AC3 (5.1 descrete tracks) in an NLE that wasn't designed to do so? Just because you spend an extra $300 on an AC3 encoder doesn't fix the lack of the ability.

I've never really worked with anything but stereo audio in PPro, however there doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from just using 6 mono, or 3 stereo, *.wav files on seperate audio tracks while you're working in it. If it were me, I'd export the finished video into an uncompressed AVI, and the audio (if changed) into *.wav again, and use Vegas to render both for DVD (I've found I prefer Vegas' MPEG-2 encode quality, usually).

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 2:01:18 PM

"The fact of the matter is that Vegas is a considerably more versatile NLE than anything else out there. There are any number of ways to do something in Vegas, but with Premiere, FCP and Avid, you do it their way or you simply don't get it done. There is nothing that can touch Vegas' audio capabilities and one thing that just bugs me no end about other NLEs is you can adjust parameters in any filter in Vegas while the timeline plays, in anything else, once you click on anything outside the timeline, they come to a screeching halt. What a waste of time!"

YUP!!!

Maybe I sound like a Vegas Fanboy if you'll pardon the expression, but I am really not. Vegas is just simply the LOGICAL choice. It has the fastest, most efficient interface and workflow of any of them out there. Sure... you can get into more detail with a program like AE but the workflow pales in comparison to Vegas. A dissolve... drag and overlap... it just CAN'T get any simpler. And the whole program is set up that way.

PP's workflow is just AWFUL. In fact if you don't mind the clunky flow of PP then you should really try Avid Liquid. It's got a similar clunky workflow but far more advanced and stable than PP is and Liquid 7 is now 4 years old!

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 2:07:17 PM

"I've never really worked with anything but stereo audio in PPro, however there doesn't seem to be anything stopping you from just using 6 mono, or 3 stereo,"

You need to be able map the outputs (front left, rear left, center....etc). You need to be able to pan not just left to right but front to back, you need to set proper levels.... etc. How do you even begin to do any of that in PP?

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: AtomicGreymon

Date:9/24/2008 2:30:27 PM

heh; that I can't tell you. Having Vegas, I've never needed to bother with PPro for that.

Going by the preferences in PPro CS3, it does have output mapping options for 5.1. Someone who's worked with 5.1 in PPro will have to tell us about the rest, though.

In looking in the Help, there is a section on panning in 5.1 audio, so the feature seems to exist.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: shawnm

Date:9/24/2008 4:24:01 PM

"Serious post work means Fusion or Nuke. CS4 is a sort of dump everything into one suite, but ONLY Photoshop is a top app. The rest are at best hobbyist level. "

Hmmm... I think this might be overstating things a bit. Post houses tend to use a variety of different tools for specific purposes. Shake and Nuke are great node based compositors to be sure... but AE is widely used in VFX work (broadcast and film (independent and studio) for its great grain tools and it's built in effects like shatter, foam and card dance (odd but true) and it's thousands of third party plug-ins... (see post houses like CafeFX, The Orphanage and ILM).

Here's an old (but good) case study that shows how AE was used in Van Helsing, for instance. (http://www.smorgasboard.com/pages/van_helsing_movie.html).

The bottom line is that the CS4 suite is just a set of tools, nothing more. The argument of weather it is or isn’t an all in one solution misses the mark. The question should be ‘Is the CS4 Suite an end to end solution for me or my business’, for many of you the answer will be ‘no’, for many of you the answer will be ‘yes’. Either way, use what works best for you and your business, or your art, or your hobby, or whatever. Personally, I use Sony's pro apps AND the Creative Suite.. I think they're both good... but that's just me.

Thanks,

Shawn

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: farss

Date:9/24/2008 5:03:35 PM

Probably one of the most sensible posts in this entire thread.
My view, if you use Vegas, CS3/4 is the best "plugin" you can buy for it.
If you use CS3/4, the best "plugin" you can buy for it is Vegas.
SCS gets business both ways. If we avoided all the pointless discussion about "Best" or "Complete" and took ourselves with a realistic world view out into the wider world we'd being doing Vegas a heck of a lot of good.

Bob.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: michaelshive

Date:9/24/2008 5:38:21 PM

Bllink3- I have to say that you certainly are a tireless supporter of Madison. Do you work there? Why else would you continue to blindly support Vegas in light of all other platforms when there are countless users reporting so many crashes that oftentimes projects are not even able to be rendered? Oh, I remember - you've never had Vegas crash in your entire life. Well, congratulations for being so fortunate but defending a product that crashes constantly for a lot of other users and cannot render complete files for a large portion of it's user base is ridiculous. Go ahead and make fun of Apple and Adobe but you know what - they are stable and are actually making better products than Vegas right now. I've been a long time Vegas fan but if I can't render a project it is useless to me. Oh - I did something wrong because Vegas crashed? Never happened before 8 came out. I seriously can't understand your constant bashing of everything non-Vegas unless you work for Sony.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: jabloomf1230

Date:9/24/2008 6:12:58 PM

@farss,

That's the way I look at it also. I go back and forth between Photoshop, AE and Vegas all the time, with Cineform as the "glue". When AE makes more sense to use for FX than Vegas (usually when I've seen someone do something in an online AE tutorial, that is similar to what I need, ), I use AE. If Vegas seems like an easier route, so be it.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/24/2008 6:26:13 PM

"Apple and Adobe but you know what - they are stable and are actually making better products than Vegas right now."

Adobe and Apple stable??? What planet are you living on?? CS3 was NOTHING but crashing... and Apple... go to the forums and count how many times some one is told to re-install the software.

Do I work for Sony? No.... but I can only wish. I wonder what kind of deals Sony insiders get!

Vagas crashing.... yes... I used to have TERRIBLE trouble but not any more. I've apparently found a workflow and hardware scheme that seems to work gangbusters. I wish I could say I feel guilty..... but I don't. I still get the odd crash.... but they're now few and far between. What did I do you ask? Sure... I'll answer that question.... even though your post is a wee bit hostile. Not entirely sure why evrything has cleared but the few changes I did make were:

- drop the overclock speed on my quad a little... not quite as fast now but appears to be a bit more stable
- Increased my memory to 8gigs and lost the page file
-I capture with HDVsplit but I no longer scene detect on the fly. I capture as one big file and THEN use the scene detect option in HDVsplit to detect scenes in the file on the HDD

The other day I did a 9 hour render with 811 events on the time line.... vegas was solid as a rock

Do I think Vegas is perfect? No, certainly not. I think Vegas HDV capture is weak and needs drastic improvement. The avchd editing is getting better... but still weak. I would love to see a larger stock of effects. I shouldn't have to buy Mercalli because Sony SHOULD have a deshaker included. Why I have to rely on New blue and Vdub for my cartooner and 3d plugin, I'm not sure..... and a few other things.


You "seriously can't understand" my constant bashing of everything non-Vegas ??? It's really quite simple.... Vegas is a great program.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: Cliff Etzel

Date:9/24/2008 6:34:34 PM

b2t - you and I are on the same page - with all of Vegas' quirks - it is still the most forward thinking NLE available - PERIOD.

I may threaten to ditch it Vegas (as if SONY really cares), but the moment I try to do anything in PPro - I immediately forget my issues with Vegas and go right back to it - it just does things better - And that is especially true for the web and h.264 MP4's - which can be played within an FLV player - and that is my biggest amount of work currently.

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: GlennChan

Date:9/24/2008 6:37:15 PM

Michael, there's no need to attack other people.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: fwtep

Date:9/24/2008 8:47:59 PM

Deusx wrote: "Serious post work means Fusion or Nuke. CS4 is a sort of dump everything into one suite, but ONLY Photoshop is a top app. The rest are at best hobbyist level."

Um, no. I know Fusion, After Effects and Nuke (I worked at DD when it was originally being developed). Each app has its plusses and minuses, and any decent FX house has seats of all. The place I'm at now has all of the above but most work is done in AE. This work includes shots in Die Hard 4, Nim's Island, Get Smart, 300, and plenty of others. I use it every day. But I only have 16 years of experience in the FX business, was part of two Emmy award-winning and one Oscar-winning FX teams, so I guess I'm just a hobbyist.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: deusx

Date:9/24/2008 10:00:16 PM

>>>but most work is done in AE<<<

No wonder we have so many lame effects in movies.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: John_Cline

Date:9/24/2008 10:08:11 PM

"No wonder we have so many lame effects in movies."

Now, that was completely uncalled for. Watching someone that's really good in AE is a thing of beauty. Some absolutely amazing stuff can be done in AE. I've even done some myself.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: Serena

Date:9/24/2008 10:18:29 PM

The nice thing about this forum is that it has a scope broader than just pushing bits around in the Vegas NLE. I think of it as a gathering place for editors and producers who have the obvious common link of using Vegas in their work. But not only Vegas and not only Sony products. If I post about a production problem ("trying to do so and so in Vegas") I'd hope someone would mention that AE, for example, offered the facilities for doing that well whereas Vegas was lacking. People post about many off-topic matters, such as converting film to video, and receive very useful advice. It will be sad if our width of available expertise becomes narrowed because we allow only discussion of Vegas. We ought to be able to disagree without getting abusive, or defensive. Personally I find Vegas Pro very reliable, and still have just ordered the upgrade for my CS3 suite (to CS4). Abusing other posters, and even Sony, I think is unproductive. But then, somebody here recently offered to "have it out" because they thought me "opiniated" -- so there you are.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: ushere

Date:9/24/2008 10:22:15 PM

a few years ago my graphics guy (when i had a post house) worked his way through them all, and finally settled on lightwave and ae. why i don't know, but whatever the client wanted, he could produce in either / both of them

in those days we were laying off to digibeta and the results were spectacular.

times have changed, but i guarantee an expert with ANY program can make it sing....

leslie

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: deusx

Date:9/24/2008 10:26:29 PM

I'm sure it can be done in AE, I'm sure it can be eited even in PPro or FCP, but if you want the best for a given job, Vegas for editing, Fusion for compositing and effects. And I was being sarcastic. These days it's more up to the person doing it than the actual application used.

I know most shops have more than one app and use what they feel is the best one for the job at hand, but often somebody will feel that AE is better suited than Fusion for a particular job simply because they don't know how to do it in Fusion, or are just more familiar with AE.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: michaelshive

Date:9/25/2008 2:35:59 PM

I don't remember ever attacking anyone personally and I really don't think that I was too harsh on Blink. If I was, I do apologize. I appreciate all the members here and have learned quite a bit - even from Blink. But to just continually suggest that Vegas is perfectly fine and even more stable than PPro or FCP is, in my opinion, ridiculous. I work in a production environment where we have all three (Vegas on several machines) and up until 8 I would lobby to edit everything in Vegas. Since 8 I've had horrible things occur whenever using Vegas & HDV material, so much so that I don't use it for important projects anymore because you just don't know if it is going to deliver. That seems to be a very common theme in this forum, much more common than Blink's experience.

The sad part is that you used to be able to install Vegas on basically any PC in the world and it would run fine with no crashing at all. In my experience, that is the opposite of what happens right now. Final Cut is much clunkier in it's workflow than Vegas but I haven't had any problems being able to get a finished product out.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: John_Cline

Date:9/25/2008 3:53:31 PM

Vegas was perfectly stable when it was basically a DV-only NLE. DV is easy, but HDV and AVCHD editing greatly complicated things. HDV issues seem to been mostly worked out and I don't have the need to do AVCHD editing, so Vegas is still running well for me. I've had far more problems with Premiere, which I've had to use more lately because of its Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro support, but I REALLY don't like its interface or workflow.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: jabloomf1230

Date:9/25/2008 3:58:04 PM

Are you also running PP CS3 on Vista x64? What kind of problems are you seeing? Premiere runs pretty much the same as Vegas (I won't say 8P) under Vista x64.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: deusx

Date:9/25/2008 5:57:24 PM

>>>>The sad part is that you used to be able to install Vegas on basically any PC in the world and it would run fine with no crashing at all. In my experience, that is the opposite of what happens right now. Final Cut is much clunkier in it's workflow than Vegas but I haven't had any problems being able to get a finished product out. <<<

And on how many PCs can you install FCP?

Exactly, so using the same analogy, find that 5% of PCs ( which is the precentage of macs as total machines out there ) that are configured to run Vegas perfectly and you'll have no problems with Vegas either.

Apple , AVID and Adobe ( to a lesser degree ) put restrictions on hardware you can use, so why should we still expect Vegas to run perfectly on everything?

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: michaelshive

Date:9/25/2008 6:08:52 PM

<<<<<Apple , AVID and Adobe ( to a lesser degree ) put restrictions on hardware you can use, so why should we still expect Vegas to run perfectly on everything?>>>>

My point is that Vegas used to be rock-solid while the competitor's were not - now the programs are heading in opposite directions. I wish it wasn't like that but it is.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/25/2008 7:18:07 PM

"My point is that Vegas used to be rock-solid while the competitor's were not - now the programs are heading in opposite directions. I wish it wasn't like that but it is."

You say that many people are having crashing problems with Vegas, and this is no doubt true.... but there are also lots of people that are editing with no troubles. What the exact numbers and ratios are I haven't a clue..... and neither do you. But what I do KNOW is that the rosey picture you paint for other programs just isn't so. PP (CS3) was crash city. FCP isn't as bad but there are still LOTS of issues. Don't take my word for it, go look at the forums.

Everybody keeps comparing Vegas 8 to vages 4 or 5 without recognizing that these programs are completely different animals. Could Vegas 5 do HDV? Did Vegas 5 have protitler? Did Vegas 5 smartrender mpg? Did Vegas 5 do Blu Ray and avchd?

Point of fact, these programs.... (ALL of them) have gotten a great deal more complicated hence the increase in finicky behavior and crashing. There have GOT to be at least 100 more ways to crash Vegas 8 then there were ways to crash Vegas 5. I recognize that knowing this does not alleviate the frustrations when it happens to you.... especially when you're on a deadline, but it's something to keep in mind when making comparisons between now and yesteryear.

What it comes down to is ACTIVELY seeking out a workflow that fits YOU and works for YOU. I used to use Avid Liquid and I hit a brick wall with that workflow. As a result I now use Vegas and with some playing and experimenting I have found what works for me and I am quite happy. Now that doesn't necessarily mean it will work for you.... and if Vegas is NOT working for you anymore then you owe to yourself to look for other avenues.

Personally speaking, I think PP (CS3.... don't know about CS4 yet) is a pile of horse S***, but then that's just me. If it works for you then you should be on your way

But as far as competitor programs becoming MORE stable.... that's just not true. Vegas USED to be a pretty simple program..... it's not anymore and that's the difference.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: michaelshive

Date:9/26/2008 6:01:17 AM

Blink - I respect your opinion but we'll just have to agree to disagree. I consider myself a very experienced Vegas editor, having used it since V4 on hundreds of projects. It has gotten to the point that it repeats the same problems editing HDV, regardless of the tips and tricks that have been shared on this forum, no matter what machine I install it on (and I have access to about 10 different machine configurations). And I really don't care how complicated Vegas has become, if it can't get a job done it is pretty much worthless.

That being said, (and I realize this is a generalization) I lurk on the FCP forums and the problems that are brought up there are usually solvable, usually submitted by newbies, and are never as drastic as the consistent DOA problems Vegas has. In other words, unlike Vegas, they are fixable. As I said before, I really wish it wasn't like this because I have to edit every single day and I would MUCH rather sit down with Vegas to edit than any other product.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: blink3times

Date:9/26/2008 6:43:30 AM

"I lurk on the FCP forums and the problems that are brought up there are usually solvable, "
.
i WILL agree with you on that one. Problems.... (most of them anyway) appear to be much more intermittent in Vegas as compared to other programs. SOME are having problems with black frames while SOME are not. SOME are having crashing issues while others are not.

There's a thread on the board right now about problems with the pan/crop window. For me the problem is non existent with HC3 footage.... but is a definite bug with my HV20 footage. What the difference is I have NO idea.

And the sore point of all this is that these intermittent issues are by far the most difficult to kill.

While other programs have LOTS of issues, it doesn't seem as if they operate on quite the intermittent level that exists withing Vegas.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: farss

Date:9/26/2008 7:41:38 AM

It's pretty simple to workout what's going wrong.
I've never had Vegas from V4 to V8.0b crash with DV, DVCAM or Digital Betacam although in one release it did some really funky field swapping trick with DB. I'd say that goes for most of us too.
I think I can say with a fair degree of certainty that everyone who is having a problem has HDV / AVCHD on the T/L. From what I read elsewhere Vegas is not alone in having this problem. Reading the Vegas 8.0c release notes the developers are saying the same thing. From my own experience helping out another Vegas user with a long form complex project this also hold true. That we could get the render to complete by replacing the HDV footage with the same footage pre-rendered to another codec adds further weight to this.
That Avid who do know which way is up will not put HDV on their timelines adds an aweful lot of weight to this.
Today I watched a FCP user try to print HDV to tape. It was painful for him and I took no joy in his suffering, I'm pretty certain he would have had a smoother time of it if he'd rendered everything to Prores before he started editing.
Many here who are editing HD have put their hand in their pockets and shelled out for the real Cineform codec. Why in the world SCS decided to ship a crippled version escapes me and Cineform, some mumbo jumbo about not working on ancient AMD chips, boo hoo is all I can say. V8.0 doesn't run under Win2K either, not one soul here has ever mentioned that so I don't think having to upgrade your CPU would put anyone off either.

I'll end my rant now :)

Happy editing.

Bob.

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: Cliff Etzel

Date:9/26/2008 7:52:07 AM

Bob, with that statement around basically any NLE having issues handling m2t files, is it safe to say that if content is transcoded to something like SONY YUV or Cineform that these issues tend to be resolved? I really don't have the $$$ to purchase Cineform NEO right now, but I may have no choice.

I'm still having issues since upgrading to 8.0c and it seems that reverting to 8.0b isn't any better. I went so far as to restore my acronis image that I thought to be a good working install of 8.0b (and it was), but any project files that had been opened in 8.0c are now causing issues and I have a large project to render out to a client this weekend and I'm really concerned that I won't be able to deliver on Monday.

The only thing I can think of to try is to literally do a fresh install from scratch this weekend and see if that doesn't fix it.

Any thoughts around this?

Cliff Etzel - Solo Video Journalist
bluprojekt

Subject:RE: OT: Adobe releases CS4

Reply by: farss

Date:9/26/2008 8:20:15 AM

Yes.

I'll give you another example of this kind of issue.
Years ago I did a few jobs that involved editing one hour of low res WMV. Because these were files encoded for streaming they had only one keyframe at the beginning. It was an absolute nightmare to edit. On the advice of one of the SCS engineers I rendered it to an AVI file first and all was a piece of cake.

You can try this at home :)

Create several WMV file, make the keyframe interval longer and longer and see how the ones with minutes between keyframes become a nightmare to step through. Vegas is having to buffer more and more frames. The same would seem to be happening with HDV and all this buffering is eating up huge chunks of RAM. What really seems to be spinning something out is any glitches on the tape that require the error correction to kick in. XDCAM EX mpeg-2 will pretty much always be flawless. Interesting to note that there's quite a few editing XDCAM EX and HD with Vegas without major problems, myself included.
The few times I have had Vegas spit the dummy with HDV is at a places I know there was glitches on the tape. Those few frames made the render slow down to minutes per frame when it flew through the rest of it.

Bob.