Subject:reaper

Posted by: gjn

Date:7/4/2008 4:04:51 AM

it's fun to see that pro vegas and acid, led to the birth of reaper ...

thank you Sonic Foundry

Sony sorry ...

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: alltheseworlds

Date:7/12/2008 6:31:27 AM

These sorts of comments are why Reaper is by far the most hated app, and its fanboys the most ridiculed, in the entire DAW spectrum.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:7/12/2008 7:09:50 AM

^^^ I agree with what you are saying. But I imagine some of that is that it's hard to not gloat when you're a Reaper user, and it's also hard to not be envious when you're not one. I mean....just take a look at what kind of updates Reaper gets on a weekly and monthly basis, while we're all sitting here at Sony and watching the paint dry on the walls without even a hint of "When" or "What" will be in Acid 7.0.


Here's Reapers change log since April in reverse chronological order:
REAPER v2.4 - July 9 2008
Download: 3.3 MB installer

* Per-take volume/pan/mute envelopes
* Preliminary scrub/jog support (with lots of options in Preferences/Playback)
* Middle mouse button in arrange now defaults to jog/scrub
* You can now grab the top of the edit cursor to move (optionally jog/scrub)
* Per-item locking
* Parameter modulation: drive FX parameters from LFO or audio control signals (unlimited sidechaining!)
* Rendering: now shows rendered peaks preview
* Rendering: high quality native dither and noise shaping options
* Preferences: search function for finding relevant options
* Simple color theme element finder (launched from color theme pref window, or by action)
* JS effects now have pin/channel routing controls, JS effects can now define input/output pins (in_pin:, out_pin:)
* ctrl+alt+drag items drops a rendered copy of items, hold shift to drag the source media
* ReaSamplomatic5000: convenient "import selected item from arrange" button
* Optional showing of cues for supported media files (view/show media cues in items)
* WAV reader: support for reading common WAV file cues and loops
* WAV writer: support for writing project markers and regions to cues and loops
* MIDI editor: note naming (double-rightclick piano roll or use the action)
* MIDI editor: can now override ESC key assignment
* MIDI editor: option to enable autosave of midi files on editor close
* MIDI editor: now supports with multiple CC lanes, saves CC lane state, better CC centering behavior
* Action to convert media item cues to project markers and item loops to project regions
* Actions to convert MIDI takes to/from file-based takes (name gets *), for ghost clip functionality
* Action to rename last touched track
* Actions to cut/copy selected items (without being focus dependent)
* Confirmation when deleting tracks with delete key (action for no prompt available)
* Safer winmm (waveOut/MIDI) device closing behavior
* waveOut/KS/DS: if no input device found, output is still opened
* new automatic worker thread behavior on OSX
* made demo project use less CPU (changed resampling mode)
* tweaked mousewheel behavior when a window is captured
* made marquee in envelope mode that doesnt intersect active envelope unselect envelope and select items
* skinnable item buttons (skin images item_fx_off/item_fx_on/item_lock_off/item_lock_on can change size of buttons)
* more efficient bezier envelope interpolation (bugfix)
* if Shup is installed, a new "Shup file" button appears at the end of render
* track envelope window now updates with fx/send changes if set to keep open
* reatune,reaeq,virtual midi keyboard: fixed octave display issues, fixed MIDI output in reatune
* click of track/item FX buttons now closes FX chain window if already open
* envelope dialog now uses virtual windows for better support of more parameters
* better doubleclick handling on some parts of items (FX buttons, etc)
* plug-ins now report actual PDC required independent of buffer size, chain still shows total compensated latency
* display of grid/snap sizes now supports 1/4T instead of 1/6 etc
* Audio Unit: fixed loading of presets, improved PDC
* fixed bug when dragndrop of media+projects at the same time
* fixed updating source file/undo states when using looped sections of items
* better save-as with trim behavior for looped sections of items
* Docker: updated resize handling when docked
* ReaFIR: smoother FFT curve drawing, draw note name in tooltip
* VST: support for parameter center extensions, improved ReaEQ and ReaXcomp
* updated TCP scrolling to better support more tracks when zoomed in
* project save-as dialog: now remembers save options (for both saving as new and re-saving existing)
* Drag and drop fix for Battery 3
* new preference for tooltip delay time
* optimized heap allocation granuarity to increase low latency performance

REAPER v2.301 - June 3 2008
Download: 3.2 MB installer

* Automation: improvements to bezier interpolation
* ReaInsert: better algorithm for autodetection of roundtrip latency
* ReaInsert: much better performance and compatibility with anticipative fx rendering
* Improved tap tempo logic

REAPER v2.3 - June 2 2008
Download: 3.2 MB installer

* Automation: Preliminary send/hardware output volume/pan/mute automation recording, per-send automation modes
* Automation: new pref for bezier interpolation of envelopes (project->defaults)
* Automation: vastly improved recording behavior, configurable return-time
* Peaks: in-memory conversion of ancient (pre-1.07) reapeaks files for faster peaks drawing overall
* Peaks: new sample-level crosses-and-lines view option
* Peaks: antialiased peak/waveform view (preference defaults to on, not supported on OSX but OSX has native AA)
* Peaks: fixed occasional bug where first peak in a channel is -1
* Fixed rendering, glueing, apply fx, etc for extremely long items (more than 2^31 samples)
* track routing dialog now shows the proper pan slider image
* added option to center vertical zooms under mouse cursor
* audio device status: more display precision on small latency values (T,MP!)
* VST: better preset handling for some older VSTs (digitalfishphones, etc)
* VST: safer VST FXB/FXP loading
* VST: faster generic UI controls (T,MP!)
* VST: better timeinfo reporting, support for extended timeinfo reporting measure count
* Virtwnd: better support for small updates of big virtual windows (used by new generic controls)
* MIDI items: better tracking/sending of CCs when seeking
* FX add dialog: disabled renaming of ReWire devices (as it was never implemented)
* FX window: reduced excess undo state changes due to comment field
* Tooltips overhaul (T,MP!)
* Pan laws: setting a pan law of +XdB now means that signal is boosted when panned
* Track meters now have optional indication that they are clickable when record armed
* Track meters can now optionally not show record input selected
* Better menu for track record mode button
* ReWire slave: better performance, fixed repeat button thrashing with some host apps
* Main window has dead zone along track panel resize edge
* ReaInsert: fixed playback issues when a non-existing input is set for return
* Mac: Preliminary AU support, support for AU with ReaMote too
* Mac: Vast improvements in AU and VST gui display
* mp3 seek/sync/EOF fixes (corrects vanishing peaks at the end of mp3 items)
* Themes: possible fix for random system image in some themes bug
* Control surfaces: included Deric's Yamaha 01X surface support
* Control surfaces: updated MCU support from spacelabstudio:
* MCU: Option for F1-F8 goto/set(ctrl) markers
* MCU: Option for better touch handling for fader moves
* MCU: Added user feedback (via LEDs) for Save/Undo
* MCU: REW/FF buttons changed to Prev/Next marker.
* MCU: Solo button (near transport) clears all solos
* MCU: Double click track select/solo selects/solos single track exclusively
* MCU: Automation LEDs follow track selection, buttons control selected tracks
* Cockos += Schwa. HOT.

REAPER v2.206 - May 8 2008
Download: 3.2 MB installer

* option to disable new (in 2.205) native synchronization (for WINE)
* better zoom behavior when zooming to mouse cursor
* fx window: numpad keys are now always passed to plug-ins
* mac: better VST UI compatability

REAPER v2.205 - May 6 2008
Download: 3.2 MB installer

* Synchronous FX multiprocessing mode (even more) improvements/optimizations
* FX add window has options for autoclearing search field
* ReaMote: autosearch now updates open FX windows if slaves added
* internal scrolling optimizations (T,MP!)
* Navigator: fixed GDI release bug (T,MP!)
* updating track names now updates any open FX windows
* New optional automatic thread behavior mode in prefs/buffering, (less CPU and decent low latency perf)
* Improved worker thread behavior for tracks that have no items/output/etc
* Improved onscreen positioning of windows (T,MP!)
* screensets can now remember focus of main edit window, track control panels
* Big internal mac updates (may affect windows version, needs testing!)
* Option to use alternate keyboard bindings when recording
* optimized some excess refreshes when scrolling in certain instances (T,MP!)

REAPER v2.203 - April 26 2008
Download: 3.2 MB installer

* MIDI editor: indicators for offscreen notes
* ReaVerb: basic deconvolution support and test tone generator
* fx browser: switching folder/category views clears search string
* fixed bug on master playrate automation when switching to write
* Fixed FaderPort initialization/shutdown code
* new installs now default to extended mixer views visible
* VST pin routing: better tooltip positioning
* mac updates

REAPER v2.202 - April 22 2008
Download: 3.2 MB installer

* Actions to set/move markers 1-10, mapped to Ctrl+0-9
* Actions: Record: start new files during recording, add recorded media, remove recorded media
* Actions: Stop recording saving all media, deleting all media
* Recording mode where files are added at each loop now does not gap playback
* better playback behavior when editing/undoing edits of master playspeed envelope
* ReaPitch: option to autocorrect master playrate pitch
* ReaVocode: increased max bands, optimizations
* made Transport: Apply play rate to current BPM reset play rate to 1.0 by default (old version is deprecated for macro use)
* Right click on playrate controls allows you to configure "preserve pitch on playrate change" for items, fader range
* FX windows, routing, undo history now numpad 0-9, and F1-F12 through to main window when active
* VST: new nifty routing-matrix-ish plug-in I/O selector
* VST: better support for some plugins that send MIDI
* API fixes for track I_RECINPUT/P_NAME updates refreshing track panels
* peak files on network drives and removeable media will automatically not be memory mapped
* disk read code now allows files to be written while open (to allow other apps to update opened media)
* better support for files on network shares that become unavailable
* fixed peak display errors for mp3 files
* project directory cleanup now shows path, explore button (to browse the project media directory)

REAPER v2.201 - April 7 2008
Download: 3.2 MB installer

* Master playspeed control can now be tweaked in realtime with a decent quality preview
* VST: bumped effEditIdle rate back up to 10hz
* VST: removed builtin plugins size weirdness on config open
* installer now allows you to choose elastique 1, elastique 2, or both.
* ReaTune: defaults to elastique 2 soloist if e1 isnt available
* fx add window: fixed bugs storing position across instances
* fix for elastique 2.0 crashes in certain instances
* ReWire: better tab names

REAPER v2.2 - April 6 2008
Download: 3.2 MB installer

* Now includes the fantastic new elastique 2.0!
* improved looped recording/playback precision
* better looping midi item precision when item length is not a multiple of sample length
* MIDI overdub/replace: auto-insert of new items defaults to shorter items
* MIDI channel rewriting in sends/hw outs no longer corrupts system realtime/exclusive messages
* looped midi input recording latency fix
* fixed bug resulting in excessive splits when recording using non-overdub/replace to in-project midi items
* rewire slave mode: better samplerate detection/switching
* re-added an old fix for Drumatic3 giving invalid samples (requires extra mainschange cycle on load)
* control surfaces: better updating of mute state on csurf track mute change
* Better drag&drop support dragging files to some plug-ins (Battery3 for example)
* Floating FX windows now size themselves to current FX size (but remember their old positions)
* Option (prefs/buffering/advanced) to disable mmap'd peakfiles (to conserve address space)
* Changed default reginfo filenames for hopefully better Vista compatability
* CPU meter: can now show RT CPU+graph (to show CPU use used by main audio thread)
* VST: performance fix for many plug-ins
* VST: better mouse/keyboard activation for plugins like Kontakt 3
* VST: better handling of resizing UIs when docked/undocked/floating
* dev: new APIs for getting/setting track and track send parameters
* dev: new APIs for manipulating track media items/takes/etc
* dev: API to query BWF info from .wav files
* dev: control surfaces can register themselves behind the scenes to get change notifications
* dev: cleanup of documentation and headers
* dev: easy lookup of command IDs via action list (doubleclick "filter" label)


P.S. Reaper also works flawlessly with the UAD-1 card.....something Sony and the other DAW developers have not been able to figure out how to do over the past 5 years.

Now let's look at Acid's development and updates since April of 2008.....or let's even make that April of 2007.

Here you go........
{crickets sound fills the room}
..
.
.
.
.

(Yeah...that's right...nothing to post).

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: drbam

Date:7/12/2008 1:42:45 PM

"These sorts of comments are why Reaper is by far the most hated app, and its fanboys the most ridiculed, in the entire DAW spectrum."

Clearly you must be referring to the small group over on KVR and obviously this must be your limited "Daw spectrum" world. Other than that, there is absolutely no evidence to back your ridiculous statement. On the contrary, Reaper is starting to really gain a dramatic following including daily posts on some high-end oriented forums. I visit several forums every single day and I NEVER read a post related to Acid Pro except here. I only see occasional posts related to Vegas on other forums and they are invariably video related. Of course, there are still many avid Sound Forge users that post elsewhere. Point being, it would be much more accurate if you would revise your statement to read something like: "These sorts of comments are why Reaper is by far the app I hate the most, and I love to come here and ridicule the Reaper fanboys. The Acid Pro forum is my entire DAW spectrum."

Peace ;-)

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: kbruff

Date:7/12/2008 2:22:00 PM

ACID Fans are in a state of denial....
Such evidence does not matter to them.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/13/2008 9:18:00 PM

>>>(Yeah...that's right...nothing to post).<<<

People who know what they are doing don't really need most of the features that are already in there, so who cares.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:7/13/2008 9:39:51 PM

I'm sorry but for the love of god could you all get a life. Really. Go away back to the reaper forums and spam "acid sucks" there.

Who cares? I like to use acid. I'm not in any form of denial...it 's just what works for me.

If you like reaper...great. Stop with this "hey let me remind everyone why they are wrong and we are right" posts every so often. Go away. Stay away.Bye Bye. See ya.

And so on.

That right there is why reaper users are annoying. Not because of reaper...but because they are the Jehovah's witnesses of the web. I'm glad you like your app...I like your app. Now stop making me feel like something is wrong with me for not using what your using.

Ed.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/14/2008 1:28:59 AM

>>Who cares? I like to use acid. I'm not in any form of denial...it 's just what works for me. <<<

If you were replying to my who cares, just to clarify ( if even necessary ), I meant, who cares about reaper. Acid and Vegas already have more features anybody in their right mind needs.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Rickms

Date:7/14/2008 5:00:34 AM

Although I’ve become a huge fan and user of Reaper especially since Acid appears to have become “abandonedware” I do not agree that evangelizing Reaper in other DAW forums is appropriate. If you were just presenting Reapers developers astounding ability to rapidly put out application enhancements and bug fixes in contrast to ACID’s 18 months and counting development lifecycle I do understand somewhat but this does not provide any value to the ACID community. It is not going to get a new release of ACID out any sooner. I also think that ACID Users are aware of what is out there or have for that matter already moved on.

Again, IMHO, opening threads about Reaper in the ACID forum is not appropriate and does not provide any value to the ACID User. They already know where they stand.

It seems that people are so excited about Reaper they just cannot keep it to themselves.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/14/2008 8:25:03 AM

>>>It seems that people are so excited about Reaper they just cannot keep it to themselves.<<<<

More likely the oldest marketing trick on the internet. A couple of buddies and proxies, pretending to be dozens of excited users.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Rickms

Date:7/14/2008 8:41:44 AM

"More likely the oldest marketing trick on the internet. A couple of buddies and proxies, pretending to be dozens of excited users."

You are mistaken on this account but this will inevitably go nowhere since there is no way I can prove it nor would you believe me anyway. I'm am sorry you feel this way.

Again I do not support posting information information about one DAW in another's DAW support forum unless specifically prompted.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: kbruff

Date:7/14/2008 11:11:02 AM

Well -- sorry to bother you friend.
I wont be going away anytime soon, since I still use ACID to finish a few projects.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: gjn

Date:7/14/2008 11:13:45 AM

I am a customer vegas, acid and soundforge past 10 ans.sony can verify.

I say simply that a reaper integrated choices sonic foundry.
and especially in recent months has developed a program better than acid;

that's all.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:7/14/2008 3:06:05 PM

<<<More likely the oldest marketing trick on the internet. A couple of buddies and proxies, pretending to be dozens of excited users.>>>

Call it what you like, but I'm still waiting for a bug to get fixed that has been in Acid 6, since it was 1st released, and that's been over 1 year ago.

Here's a 100% reproduceable bug in Acid that Sony knows about and are unable to fix, and here I sit with a broken feature that I use often and Sony does not have either the competency or the ambition to fix it in an Acid 6 update.

Steps:
1. Goto Options>Preferences>Audio Tab
2. Set Acid Type for Recorded Audio to: "One-Shot"
3. Split out a section of a previously recorded take, and select the new clip you created.
4. Set Loop brackets outside of selected clip.
5. Enable Loop playback.
6. Hit Record and let Acid record more than one Clip in the loop record mode you set up.

Acid erases ALL clip takes, except for the last take!!! If you have 4 takes....they're ALL the same take, which is the last one recorded.

For some reason Vegas is able to do this properly and so does Reaper. Vegas doesn't have midi. If I reported a bug like this to the Reaper developers, it wouldn't take them over a year to fix it, and they wouldn't force me to pay for the next version for a bug fix, which should have been fixed in the previous version.

So tell me what's to be so excited about with using Acid when Sony can't even fix 100% reproduceable bugs when you're using features they specifically list in the manual?

A while ago I left Vegas to go to Sonar, since Vegas was no longer focused on music production. When Acid was announced that it would be a full featured DAW for v6.0, I was excited to come back and start using the same features I previously had grown accustomed to using in Vegas. Instead I got a DAW that doesn't have drag and drop functionality. I got a DAW that doesn't have 1/2 of the editing features as Vegas, and I got a DAW with a bug in it that Sony won't/can't fix which works perfectly in Vegas. Sony had their chance to get me back as a customer, but they lost me again due to their lack of support and half-assed development. Reaper has not let me down, since the 1st day I have looked at it as an alternative to Vegas and Acid.

When Sony shows some interest in supporting their products and their customers like the Reaper developers do, then I will be happy to say good things about Acid. A bug that is 100% reproduceable and goes unfixed for over a year, is just inexcusable.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:7/14/2008 3:39:19 PM

---A bug that is 100% reproduceable and goes unfixed for over a year, is just inexcusable.---

No argument there. I'll see if I can repro as well your problem. If you have any others please post them here. I'll shoot some emails to sony as well.

Ed.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/14/2008 5:49:19 PM

I've been seeing bugs that I can reproduce at any time in applications costing $2 - 5K and for about 3-4 years now. So, Sony is not exactly the exception there.

If reaper works for you, then use it. I mostly use vegas and have no interest in reaper or any other DAW. I don't even know or care what features those other apps may have, because I don't miss anything in Vegas. It's simple to use, it does what I want it to do and it never crashes.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:7/14/2008 6:37:22 PM

"No argument there. I'll see if I can repro as well your problem. If you have any others please post them here. I'll shoot some emails to sony as well."

Well, good luck with that. Here is a thread from September of 2006 where you will see that yours truly SonyPCH is fully aware of the bug and he gives a less than promising response.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?Forum=1&MessageID=484783

"We are looking at solutions. Whether something will happen for ACID 6 update has not been determined.

Peter"

So here we are 1 year and 10 months later without a fix in Acid 6.0. Absolutely amazing!!!

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Klirrfaktor

Date:7/15/2008 3:37:24 AM

i watch this forum almost every day to see if theres an update for acid. my problems are incorrect vsti handling (for example NI plugins) and crashes. also i must say that the performance is pretty bad in big tracks.

now.. its sad but i really switched to reaper aswell. and damn... i guess i wont switch back to acid anymore. that app just kicks ass and its a freakin 3.3mb download!!!!!!!! pretty stable and fast. im able to do big projects without living at the limit of my machine. of course it has a different approach, but i can do what i need to do and it works.

its just sad that a "freeware" app is more mighty than a world changing app like acid. no announcement, no updates and bugfixing was always not priorized in acid. the forum is full of people complaining and it seems that noone even cares.

...im obviously another lost customer :-(

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Rickms

Date:7/15/2008 1:45:07 PM

I would not call Reaper "freeware". But at $50 for a non-commercial license it is as close as you can get. I do know that you can run it full featured forever without paying but how can you not throw $50 their way for all the effort.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: thirdnostril

Date:7/15/2008 3:05:37 PM

VST improvements?

MIDI improvements?

People who know what they're doing don't need these?

Put the bottle down; you've had enough.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/16/2008 3:11:29 AM

>>>People who know what they're doing don't need these?<<<

Absolutely not.

You talk like all those people recording 5 yers ago or in the 90s, 80s, 70, 60s, couldn't live without ACID or reaper. OH no, let's not record anything, after all what is the point, we can wait for 2020, then we can just click on a make a hit song button.

It''s absurd.

The more you need the less you know. It's always been true and always will be.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: thirdnostril

Date:7/16/2008 7:14:11 AM

"You talk like all those people recording 5 yers ago or in the 90s, 80s, 70, 60s, couldn't live without ACID or reaper. OH no, let's not record anything, after all what is the point, we can wait for 2020, then we can just click on a make a hit song button.

It''s absurd.

The more you need the less you know. It's always been true and always will be."

Oh, I see. You're changing the question in order to be right. Very common.

Of course, people who record TODAY on COMPUTERS need the software to be stable, and need the current technology to work properly. But yes, if you squint and turn your head sideways, and speak in a strictly philosophical sense, you don't "need" it. You could always go back to Tascam 4-tracks. But I'd rather not, thanks. Something tells me Sony doesn't want this either.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:7/16/2008 9:59:31 AM

>>>>The more you need the less you know. It's always been true and always will be<<<<

That's funny, because I really don't need a lot, but I do "want" something that I paid for to work like it is suppose to. Even the people who recorded the Beatles, if the tape machine they just bought didn't work properly then I'm sure they would be upset too.

I suppose you're the type of person that buys a new car and within a year if the engine stops running, you just say...."That's ok, I'll just sit here in my drive way with the windows rolled down and try to look cool. Look at the bright side, I'm saving on the gas money I would have to spend if I was driving it and the windows still work." Except, in Acid's case the engine never ran in the 1st place and they never attempted to fix it in over a year.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/16/2008 8:45:31 PM

Works for me. Vegas as a DAW, ACID for creating something with loops, and I could do the exact same thing with Vegas 5 or ACID 5, didn't even need to upgrade ( except for hd video ).

So, no I'm not changing the question. Even talking just about pc based recording, this century, there is nothing to be added to any application that would make any significant difference.

VST, UAD??? who gives a %$#^. I have racks of effects that work just fine through Vegas and fireface. And it's sonically superior to any VST plug in.

The only thing that may make a minor difference to some people, is if they dumped all of Vegas' features into ACID, so you could do everything in ACID, but again, since I've worked with Vegas for years and already have it, not something I really care about.

ACID is still for putting something together from a bunch of loops and sounds, and it works for that.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Rickms

Date:7/17/2008 4:44:35 AM

I'm not sure why BradyMusic and Devox are going back and forth with this. Devox finds status quo and the work process he has in place acceptable. BradyMusic requires/desires/expects more from the application and Sony. Both positions are valid.

There is no denying that ACID is broken and BradyMusic has the right to demand the product functions.

Devox on the other hand is not impacted by the issues but has no right to tell other that they do not have an issue because it works for him.

I once saw a guy driving a nail into a piece of wood with the bottom of the handle of a hammer. When I asked him about it he showed me that the head of the hammer was very loose and he was afraid it may fly off if it was used. He said he has been using this hammer this way for a few days. When I asked him why he just did not get a new hammer he stated "well it still works for me".

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: thirdnostril

Date:7/17/2008 12:56:51 PM

"So, no I'm not changing the question. Even talking just about pc based recording, this century, there is nothing to be added to any application that would make any significant difference."

Except stability. And debugging. Because a feature that never works, or works when it feels like it, is not really a feature at all. Get it now?

"VST, UAD??? who gives a %$#^. I have racks of effects that work just fine through Vegas and fireface. And it's sonically superior to any VST plug in."

So, in other words, and I can't believe I'm wasting the time to type this, since you're obviously just going to change what you're talking about AGAIN so you won't have to admit to a mistake, but you use HARDWARE gear. And your position is "Who needs software upgrades?" Um, I don't know, but maybe SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE OUTBOARD GEAR? How far up an @$$ can a head be stuck?

"The only thing that may make a minor difference to some people, is if they dumped all of Vegas' features into ACID, so you could do everything in ACID, but again, since I've worked with Vegas for years and already have it, not something I really care about."

And so, of COURSE, everyone else in the world should be happy with what they have on 7/17/08 at 3:50 PM EDT. Because YOU are.

They call your brand of extreme self-absorption "solipsism."

"ACID is still for putting something together from a bunch of loops and sounds, and it works for that."

For YOU, oh self-important one, it's for loops. Some of us don't have Vegas, and want our DAW (ACID) to work. Why would you even bother taking part in a discussion such as this one, when your contribution is 100% non-applicable to anyone who isn't you?

Maybe your handle should be "Satan's Imp."

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: kbruff

Date:7/17/2008 1:49:55 PM

rude

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:7/17/2008 6:24:29 PM

I can just feel the love in here.

lulz

Iacobus

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Rickms

Date:7/18/2008 5:46:01 AM

Can't we all just get along.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/19/2008 6:14:22 AM

>>>SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE OUTBOARD GEAR?<<<

And those are people who don't know what they are doing ( like I said in the first post here ).

Software only music production ( it can't even be called that ) is like entering a formula1 race on a bicycle, then complaining when things don't work out.

ACID is not a DAW ( although I could work with it ) , Vegas is. You may have a beef with Sony because they mention DAW in advertising, but you should know better ( who believes advertising ) . ACID has never been a DAW in the real sense, and still isn't. It works, and it works well for what it was designed to do.

Just like you, I could simply reverse your statement and say, ACID is broken for YOU, oh the so self important one. There are many others who know what it's good for and it works just fine.

The less you know, the more you need. Midi, UAD, VST, bla, bla the list goes on, and the longer it gets, more problems you have. Maybe learning how to play some real instruments and not rely on technology so much would be a good start. That is what music is, after all. Clicking on some software interface and fiddling with knobs is Bul%$#^%.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: drbam

Date:7/19/2008 7:02:29 AM

<<ACID is not a DAW ( although I could work with it ) , Vegas is. >>

LOL! Well this statement alone speaks volumes about your ignorance regarding DAWs and music software in general (likewise for 99% your other statements). Not that you give a damn or that you would even understand, but Vegas is a Non Linear Editor (NLE) – NOT a DAW. This has been pointed out and clarified by Sony on these forums on several occasions. Sony does view Acid 6 as a DAW. You might consider going back to tweaking your hardware and using Acid to create "loops" because you sure are making a fool of yourself around here. ;-)

Peace

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:7/19/2008 8:31:01 AM

Well, I have Acid, Vegas, Reaper, and a lot of external hardware. I also know how to use all of it. I guess that now qualifies me as knowing what I'm doing according to deusx's logic.

Now explain to me how the same function can work in Vegas, but does not work in Acid if Acid does what it was "designed to do"? So the function I'm describing that does not work properly is given step-by-steps on how to perform it in the Acid manual....yet you're going to make a statement that "Acid does what it was designed to do and does it well?"

Acid was also designed to be able to host VSTis (ie virtual instruments), something that Vegas does not do. Yet, Acid can't even remember a VSTi's pre-sets once you close the project and reopen it. Also, I have hardware external synths and samplers also, so don't even try to go down that route either. It's not an either/or argument, I should be able to work with both and have the flexibility of both. That's what Acid was "designed" to do. It was designed poorly and it has poor support in fixing the things it was designed to do.

Here's another oxy-moron about using Acid and Vegas together. You can't export an Acid Project and open it in Vegas. Vegas has EDL support...yet Acid does not. Acid has Re-wire support...yet Vegas doesn't. Acid has midi support, yet Vegas doesn't. Thus, it sure looks like Sony is trying it's hardest to not be able to work with both Acid and Vegas together, which is pretty much what you're suggesting. So I suppose I could export individual tracks out of Acid and then re-import them all into Vegas which is a PITA, especially if I wanted to change any midi patches or do any midi editing or I could try to use MTC to sync them together and watch them drift all over the place.

You're coming in here and acting like you know more than anyone else, but it's quite clear to everyone else that you don't know what the f**k you are talking about.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:7/19/2008 5:06:22 PM

I was trying hard to avoid this thread but I just have to ask some questions about deusx's post and add a comment:

> Software only music production ( it can't even be called that ) is like entering a formula1 race on a bicycle, then complaining when things don't work out.

I have to disagree. I'm a keyboard player and I have several old analog and MIDI keyboards and tons of rack-mount and MIDI gear that I never bother to turn on anymore. (Hammond B3, Polymoog, Minimoog, Ensoniq EPS, Ensoniq SQ-80, Ensoniq ESQ-M, EMU Proteus/1, 3 Yamaha TX7's, Oberheim Matrix 1000, Roland modules, etc.) Today, software emulation of hardware is equal in sonic quality and far superior in performance value because it can be automated. While my Hammond B3 and Minimoog still sound great, these days I use Native Instruments B4 II and Aurturia Moog Modular V in my recordings and I don't miss the hardware at all. No warm up, no tuning problems, just great sound. I only use my hardware for live performance anymore.

> ACID is not a DAW ( although I could work with it ) , Vegas is

I would like to understand your definition of a DAW, especially how Vegas is and ACID isn't? Both do multi-track audio recording, playback, and editing. I just don't see the functional difference (except that ACID is more capable than Vegas because it has MIDI/VSTi support which is important to me).

BTW, according to Wikipedia:

DAW: A digital audio workstation (DAW) is an electronic system designed to record, edit and play back digital audio. A key feature of DAWs is the ability to freely manipulate recorded sounds, much like a word processor manipulates typed words.

Sounds like ACID to me.

> The less you know, the more you need. Midi, UAD, VST, bla, bla the list goes on, and the longer it gets, more problems you have. Maybe learning how to play some real instruments and not rely on technology so much would be a good start. That is what music is

As a musician I have to agree about learning how to play. ACID does everything I need because all I need from a DAW is the ability to record, playback and edit my musical performances without using tape like I use to. I don't use functions like quantization. If I don't like my performance I record it again. Occasionally I'll shift a bad note in an otherwise fine performance just to save time but if it needs any extensive editing I just record it again.

It all boils down to how much functionality you actually use. I'm happy with ACID based on the way I use it. Others may not be based on their usage. If you're not happy, then move on to another DAW. They all have their quirks. You just need to find the one that is the least quirky given your workflow.

~jr

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/19/2008 7:27:30 PM

>>>LOL! Well this statement alone speaks volumes about your ignorance regarding DAWs and music software in general (likewise for 99% your other statements). Not that you give a damn or that you would even understand, but Vegas is a Non Linear Editor (NLE) <<<

Vegas started out as a pure audio software. A DAW.

Leter they added video capability and shifted over to video editing, that is where NLE comes from, but Vegas is still a very capable DAW despite what Sony's marketing decides to call it.

ACID started as a loop based something. I don't call it composing unless all of the loops you use are your own. Later they tried to bring it closer to a full DAW. Call it a DAW if you want, but Vegas was Sonic Foundry's first DAW and still has editing features people complain are missing in ACID.

Reaper started as a pure ripoff of Vegas.

That's pretty much all it is for this history lesson.

>>>It all boils down to how much functionality you actually use. I'm happy with ACID based on the way I use it. Others may not be based on their usage. If you're not happy, then move on to another DAW.<<<

That is exactly what I meant by: "the less you know the more you need"

You say you are happy, record bad part again, avoid quantization, and so on, so you know what you are doing. I suspect people who are most unhappy are those who want software to do everything for them. Like lazy guitar players who want to play one track then double that with a bit of delay for the other stereo channel. Guitar players who know what they are doing, know that playing both tracks individually, even though it's the exact same part, gives you a completely different sound due to the fact that humans are incapable of playing both parts exactly the same ( yet it sounds much better than just duplicating with effects or software ).

>>ACID does everything I need because all I need from a DAW is the ability to record, playback and edit my musical performances without using tape like I used to.<<<

That's all I need too, and even though I have both, I use Vegas for that instead of ACID simply because I've been using it for a long time and never had any problems with it ( although for pure editing/cutting Vegas seems to be slightly better than ACID, like that copy/drag thing ).

>>>>>>especially if I wanted to change any midi patches or do any midi editing or I could try to use MTC to sync them together and watch them drift all over the place.

You're coming in here and acting like you know more than anyone else, but it's quite clear to everyone else that you don't know what the f**k you are talking about.<<<<<

Since I just play it right live, I don't really need to know anything about midi editing and shifting notes, do I?

You chose the path of technological dependence, now you have to deal with it, that's all it is.

I hear ACID 7 will have a button you click and it automatically connects and downloads random loops from sony's site, then spits out a hit song for you. Only one song per day per household though.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:7/20/2008 12:05:04 AM

Guys enough already. The point is a company cannot just stop updating its software untill the users say its done.

No new features of course. Just fix ALL of what was promised when you purchased the software.

That is fair...that makes good business sense.

Ed.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:7/20/2008 7:22:07 AM

"Since I just play it right live, I don't really need to know anything about midi editing and shifting notes, do I?

You chose the path of technological dependence, now you have to deal with it, that's all it is."

No, I make my living off of creating music and working with clients. My Clients expect me to have the ability to do something as simple as loop recording where they can audition multiple takes and select the one they like best. Since Acid erases any of it's multiple takes during loop recording, then I can't use Acid....a program that I specifically paid for to do that type of function. I've been waiting for Sony to fix their bug, so I can actually use the what I paid for. My clients have different skill sets, if some of them could play live then their would be no need for them to come to me. So I have many different clients who all have different needs and like to work in different ways. So I need an app that works like it is advertised to do, so that I am capable of meeting all my client's needs, and thus keeping my clients and attracting new ones.

Alls you're doing is making assumptions about how you think everyone else works or should work. You think your way is the superior way. Well, you're nothing but a self centered f**king asshole.who doesn't know sh*t about how people who make their livings working in studios actually work or what clients expect you to do and if you are incapable of performing tasks that everyone else can do, then you lose clients. So go f**K yourself, ya f**king dimwitted self centered piece of sh*t and take your half crippled non supported Acid and shove it up your azz along with ya..

I don't have to put up with your bullshit or Sony's bullshit. I'm just wondering which one of you assholes are going to give me my $300 back. Until either of you f**cking idiots give me the $300 that I paid for a broken Acid, then you're going to hear me bitch and complain. So get used to it f**k head!!! I've been patient by waiting on a bug fix for almost 2 years now and I've downloaded every update with still no bug fix insight.


You chose the path of technological dependence, now you have to deal with it, that's all it is."

Just like you did....and now you get to hear me bitch and complain on the same forum where you are busy kissing Sony's azz all up and down on. So try to learn how to deal with it bitch.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:7/20/2008 7:57:12 AM

"Guys enough already. The point is a company cannot just stop updating its software untill the users say its done.

No new features of course. Just fix ALL of what was promised when you purchased the software.

That is fair...that makes good business sense.

Ed."

Finally!!!! There's someone in this forum with some good sense. That's all I'm asking for is for Sony to fix what I paid for if it's broken. In my case it's been broken since it was 1st launched and it's remained broken for almost 2 years.

The only reason I started using Reaper was because Acid was not able to do the items I used and it was advertised to do. So I started to Rewire Acid to Reaper, since Reaper works doing those same functions that Acid doesn't. I see myself using Acid less and less in the future until it's completely out of my work flow, if this is the type of support I can expect to see from Sony.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: deusx

Date:7/20/2008 7:28:05 PM

>>>My Clients expect me to have the ability to do something as simple as loop recording where they can audition multiple takes and select the one they like best<<

Like, I said: the less you know..............

What you describe is very simple to do in ACID or Vegas. Just look a little to the left of the very obvious.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Iacobus

Date:7/21/2008 10:14:33 AM

"You say you are happy, record bad part again, avoid quantization, and so on, so you know what you are doing. I suspect people who are most unhappy are those who want software to do everything for them. Like lazy guitar players who want to play one track then double that with a bit of delay for the other stereo channel. Guitar players who know what they are doing, know that playing both tracks individually, even though it's the exact same part, gives you a completely different sound due to the fact that humans are incapable of playing both parts exactly the same ( yet it sounds much better than just duplicating with effects or software )."

Definitely no argument there. I always record the same part multiple times and put it all together. It just sounds...awesome. :) Time-consuming, yes, but worth the effort.

"I hear ACID 7 will have a button you click and it automatically connects and downloads random loops from sony's site, then spits out a hit song for you. Only one song per day per household though."

I'm sorry but that was just the funniest thing I've heard in awhile. xD

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: gjn

Date:7/21/2008 10:28:47 AM

never said that acid and vegas were bad daw ... I've bought ....
I am simply saying that since little reaper, is a cheaper and reliable.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Rickms

Date:7/22/2008 12:57:12 PM

This is one insane thread!

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: thirdnostril

Date:7/23/2008 11:27:14 AM

">>>SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE OUTBOARD GEAR?<<<

And those are people who don't know what they are doing ( like I said in the first post here )."

So in other words, you invent your reality as you go along, so you never have to admit you're a blowhard. That must make you so proud.

"Software only music production ( it can't even be called that ) is like entering a formula1 race on a bicycle, then complaining when things don't work out."

U2, Yes, Garbage, and a hundred other Grammy-nominated artists would laugh their asses off at that little nugget, if they weren't too busy to read it. You are a solipsistic ninny living in his own world. Good luck with that.

"ACID is not a DAW ( although I could work with it ) , Vegas is. You may have a beef with Sony because they mention DAW in advertising, but you should know better ( who believes advertising ) . ACID has never been a DAW in the real sense, and still isn't. It works, and it works well for what it was designed to do."

ACID is a DAW. Your acknowledgement is not required. See what I mean about creating your own reality? Of course not.

"Just like you, I could simply reverse your statement and say, ACID is broken for YOU, oh the so self important one. There are many others who know what it's good for and it works just fine."

Please learn to read. I never said ACID was broken. And just because you can type it, doesn't make it applicable. And that's before I consider the source.

"The less you know, the more you need. Midi, UAD, VST, bla, bla the list goes on, and the longer it gets, more problems you have. Maybe learning how to play some real instruments and not rely on technology so much would be a good start."

You mean like the five instruments I play already (and I'll go note-for-note, lick-for-lick with you, anytime, anyplace--online or otherwise)? As for "relying" on technology, what do you record with? Papyrus? Come to think of it, that's technology too. So you, what---etch your songs on cave walls?

See what happens when you type before you think?

"That is what music is, after all. Clicking on some software interface and fiddling with knobs is Bul%$#^%."

Tell yourself that the next time you're turning a volume knob, or pressing "Record." You mental midget.

Had enough, or do I have to embarass you some more?

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:7/27/2008 12:21:49 PM

"That right there is why reaper users are annoying. Not because of reaper...but because they are the Jehovah's witnesses of the web. I'm glad you like your app...I like your app. Now stop making me feel like something is wrong with me for not using what your using.

Ed."

BTW, I think your opinion of Reaper users is very far from the truth. I personally, enjoy visiting the Reaper forums because there is actually a lot of value you can gain from the users there, even if you don't use Reaper. The Reaper forum and users are not filled with negativity like you see in the Sony forums, because the developers don't give the users much reason to be negative about the app.

If you have actually spent some time in discussions with the Reaper users, you would see that they even recommend Sony Vegas when specific questions unrelated to Reaper are asked in the Reaper forums and they even describe how to do things in Vegas. Here's a post in the Reaper forums, and you can see how the users are not negative and highly recommend Sony Vegas.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=23764

You won't see Reaper users bashing Acid on the Reaper forums, because the type of support that the Reaper developers offer, is exactly why people leave Acid , among other apps and in return are now working with an app where they don't have to wait 2 years for a bug fix or 2 plus years for feature updates. Instead of seeing a host of threads of people complaining about bugs like you do here in the Acid forum, you see threads like this one.
http://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=23909

So your opinion of the Reaper users is pretty far from the truth. I only wish the Acid forums and users where 1/10th as useful as the Reaper forums and users, but that will not happen as long as the Sony developers continue to not support their app and leave users frustrated for long periods of time.

Also Ed....have you had any luck by contacting Sony in regards to the bug I described? Any insights?

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: AAAbatteries

Date:7/27/2008 4:31:48 PM

Palm - Apply directly to your face.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:7/31/2008 7:26:41 PM

---Also Ed....have you had any luck by contacting Sony in regards to the bug I described? Any insights?---


Bradly,

Yes this is a bad bug. Unfortunately all I can say is that due to a NDA I can't say much more.

Ed.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Dr D

Date:11/27/2008 2:49:28 AM

Never having heard of Reaper a couple of months ago, I got curious about it after seeing it slagged off in this forum. And now Acid 7.0 has finally arrived, I don't need to upgrade to it. I am using Reaper with Vienna Symphonic Library and the free plug-ins, switching almost without effort between my Windows machine and the studio's Mac (sic!) :-)

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: kitekrazee

Date:11/27/2008 5:49:06 AM

I have Reaper and it's strength is it's resource efficient audio engine. Of course they update it a lot because it's very weal for using midi.

Reaper and Acid is like apples and oranges. Look at the philosophy of the developer of Reaper. He's not in it to make money.

"The goal of Cockos is to develop software sustainably while preventing profit rationale from forcing engineering compromises."

While Sony, Cakewalk and others can't have that business model and keep a profit and stock holders. Steinberg was aquired by Yamaha, who knows if how much of Cakewalk is controlled by Roland. This product use to be under Sonic Foundry.

The real shiiter for me is TaSCAM dropped all support for Gigastudio 4 after 2 months of it's release.

The big companies cannot survive with the same philosophy as Cockos. It would be nice but it's not reality.

Subject:RE: reaper

Reply by: Patrick@Denman

Date:11/27/2008 2:49:51 PM

Yes, kitekrazee, you're quite right...Sony and the other big guys just can't follow a business model like that. But for Sony's part, the business model they are following is broken, IMHO. For me they took far too long to release AP 7, and I switched to REAPER a few months ago. I don't regret it at all, even now that AP 7 is finally out.

I do think that Sony Creative could learn from Cockos. IMHO what makes it so successful are basically two things: low price and active community. Their online forums are fantastic, with many users actively sharing their ideas about using the product. It's created intense brand loyalty, with an almost religious fervor.

What also helps Cockos is that they are doing OEM deals with hardware manufacturers to bundle REAPER with other products, and that is definitely something Sony Creative could do to help rebuild the ACID business.