Subject:from Sonar to Acid

Posted by: Randy Brown

Date:3/12/2008 7:02:55 AM

Hello everyone,
I've been using Sony Vegas for 5 years for video production. Prior to doing video production I did audio only using Cakewalk/Sonar (Acid didn't do MIDI back then) with Giga Sampler. I've gotten so used to the Sony GUI that I feel more comfortable with the Acid demo I downloaded yesterday than Sonar (but of course I have a LOT to learn).
My question is, does Kompakt do everything that Giga will do and does it not come with the Acid demo? Giga works fine with Acid but I'd like to take advantage of the Media Manager if it is useful with Kompakt.

TYVM for your time,
Randy

BTW, as kind of a tutorial for myself I am re-recording one of my old songs. I brought in the wav and I'm trying to set the tempo to match the wav but it changes the tempo of the wav. This may sound like a dumb question but (I cant find it in help) how do I keep the wav from changing tempos? Also are the $99 Sony Acid tutorials good or are there better ones out there?

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: jackn2mpu

Date:3/15/2008 11:58:34 AM

First off, which Sonar version are you using? To tell the truth, I find Sonar 5 much easier to use than Acid 6, of which I have both. I also have Acid 5. For serious loop work I either Rewire Acid 5 into Sonar or use loops directly in Sonar.
If you're going for Acid Pro 6 for Kompakt, I don't think that's a good reason. If you haven't noticed, Native Instruments dropped Kompakt from it's offerings. And even if it was still being offered from NI, it was never the sampler that Kontakt is. I haven't use Giga so I can't explicitly comment on that, but I will say that I think Kompakt will be nowheres near what Giga can do. I have just about the whole software suite that NI offers except for Guitar Rig, Acoustik Piano and Elektrik Piano so I knpow whereof I speak.
Why not trying Sonar 7 if your computer has the specs to run it. You may be pleasantly surprised. My music computer doesn't have the specs to really run S7 with any aplomb. Besides, Sonar 5 Producer does all that I need. Not to dis Sony product, I do like Sound Forge and Acid 5, but not really pleased with Acid 6.
Jack

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: alltheseworlds

Date:3/15/2008 2:58:13 PM

I also use both. I find Sonar has way too many bells & whistles. Vital to some no doubt, but for me they just get in the way and clutter the environment. I find AP6 let's me work much faster.

As for Kompact, it's a incredibly simple sample playback device. Nothing more. If you want real sampler/rompler power you need to look elsewhere.

Your host & your sampler are two completely different questions.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: Randy Brown

Date:3/17/2008 1:39:58 PM

Thanks very much guys...I'll ponder and get back : )

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: indeepthought

Date:3/18/2008 7:26:51 PM

I recently purchased Sonar 7 (Sorry Sony, but I got sick of waiting for an upgrade) and i can see no logical reason for anyone using Sonar to switch to Acid. If , like myself you already own Acid, it's still a useful tool. Just does not offer enough to warrant switching. Kompakt is not a bad sample playback instrument, but it can be argued that there are freeware equivalents that are better (shortcircuit and Highlife come to mind). Kompakt is nowhere in the league of Giga. Definitely don't buy for the plugins or included synths. The bundled sonar ones (even the light ones) are better, particularly if you bought the producer edition.

Don't get me wrong, I surprisingly find myself still using Acid 6 a lot. It is a lot less convoluted than Sonar and i am very used to the interface. Also, it still does what it specializes in better (arguably) than most competitors at a far easier learning curve.


To answer your other question, just use the beatmapper to make sure acid is calculating the tempo of your wav correctly

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: Randy Brown

Date:3/19/2008 6:42:54 AM

I downloaded the Sonar Producer trial to try and compare. It looks a lot different than Sonar 2 and would have a learning curve but it has advanced dramatically and so far I'm very impressed.
I can upgrade for $249 and feel it would be my best choice (especially after reading everyone's posts ).
Thanks very much to all for your honest opinions!!!

Randy

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: thenoizzbox

Date:3/20/2008 8:32:52 AM

I got tired of waiting as well and, I never tought I'd say this as I really love Acid but I have now moved to Reaper.

Coming from Acid, the transition has been a lot easier than I expected and in really works amazingly well in my 64-bit Vista machine. I'll wait to see what Acid Pro 7 brings to see if I'll stick with Reaper or switch back but, so far, it does everything Acid did for me and then some. Reaper is a LOT more powerful in terms of routing and general flexibility and it comes with many amazing effects (its compressor ReaComp is fantastic for example). The tiny footprint and the speed of updates are also big plusses.

I still prefer how Acid Pro 6 handles some things though but it doesn't work well with Vista 64 and some plugins I depend on (like my DR-008 drum sampler) really don't work at all in AP6 in Vista The same DR-008 works flawlessly in Reaper on the same machine and Reaper handled everything I've throw at it so far without a hitch. I can move windows, open effets dialogs, synths, change the timeline's zoom and even swicth to or start other apps while Reaper is playing a song and it never glitches or stutters.

I really thought the Reaper fanatics were rambling when it first came out and I was unimpressed when I tried a couple of early versions. But now, on my new Vista 64 machine, I must admit that I am very impressed. Acid Pro 7 better be a hell of an upgrade for me to switch back to it, especially after the long wait since AP6 and Sony's refusal to give users an update to have AP6 work on Vista. I would have gladly paid for an upgrade too but we're still waiting for it.

Vista has been out for 15 months now and had been in beta for what, 2 years before that? It's not like they didn't have time to see it coming and prepare for it. I really think Sony could have handled the way they moved their apps to support Vista a lot better, especially with Acid. That Acid still is unsupported on VIsta by a free or paid upgrade 15 months after Vista's official release was not acceptable to me and that's why I decided to try Reaper. It took only about 3 hours to convince me to purchase it and start moving Acid projects to it.

FWIW, before Acid I was using Cakewalk and then Sonar. The last Sonar version I have used was 4.x so I don't know how far it has evolved since. One of the reasons I had moved to Acid was that it ran a lot better on my old computer than Sonar did. I then fell in love with Acid's workflow which I quickly came to prefer over Sonar's, especilly with Acid Pro 6's major MIDI enhancements. Now that hardware limitations are no longer an issue for me, I didn't even consider going back to Sonar and decided to stick with Acid on my second machine (much less powerful than the Vista box) until the next version came out, but like I said, I got tired of waiting and wasting all the computer power of my Vista box. Now that I found Reaper 2, Sonar is even farther off my radar, no matter what happens with Acid.

My $ 0.02

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: indeepthought

Date:3/20/2008 3:01:28 PM

I tried reaper for about a week and abandoned it. It did not seem bad, but it did not offer me anything that was not easier in acid at the time. I'm avoiding Vista like the plague so the Vista issues have not affected me yet for Acid. i may give it a second look.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: RichardHK

Date:4/14/2008 9:53:08 AM

>I then fell in love with Acid's workflow which I quickly came to prefer over Sonar's, especilly with Acid Pro 6's major MIDI enhancements. Now that hardware limitations are no longer an issue for me, <

Noixxbox,

What do you mean by 'hardware limitations are no longer an issue'? I am evaluating AP6, Reaper, and now Sonar 7 to try and understand any limitations to MIDI in particular. I am no expert, but wanting to sync my Roland Fantom X7 with a DAW alongside VSTi's like M-tron and others.

This DAW comparison is very useful, but sadly no AP6 info:
http://www.fetidus.com/DAWstuff/GiantMIDIcomparison.html

In the above, Sonar 7 clearly has MIDI advantage for MIDI instrument definitions, MIDI sync, Control lanes, step sequencer, and more. Are these features in AP6, and are these anything to do with what used to be your limitations?

Can I use AP6 Ok for external instruments control and such as above? Want full control of dynamics, program changes, and simillar.

Just started my evaluation and trying to find out as much as I can as quickly as possible. Use Vegas Pro 8 and Sound Forge 9, and have an unused AP5 that I can upgrade if AP6 works for me.

Thanks.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: thenoizzbox

Date:4/14/2008 12:54:52 PM

Richard,

My "hardware limitations" comment was referring to the computer I was using prior to July 2007. It was an aging circa 2001 AMD Athlon 1GHz with1 GB of Ram. I had upgraded a few things but it was really starting to struggle and the mobo finally fried.... It is a testament to how efficient Acid Pro 6's audio engine is that I was able to work on my music on that machine for this long. The comment was not about any limitations in Acid itself.

As for your other questions, I was not using external instruments with Acid but that should not be an problem at all. Sonar does have an edge in terms of the depth of its MIDI editing feature set but I prefered Acid's simplicity. With the in-line MIDI editing feature added in AP6 it was easy to create drum parts in context for example and Acid does have drum maps to see what each /not is in the drum editor.

As for Sonar's instruments definition, it's been quite a long time since I used it so I don't really remember what they did exaclty.

All I know is that I was able to do more faster in Acid Pro 6 regarding MIDI editing than in Sonar but my MIDI editing needs were probably simpler than yours. Download Acid Pro's trial and see if it will fit your workflow.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: jumbuk

Date:4/14/2008 6:41:25 PM

I have a version of Sonar that came bundled with some hardware. I like that it is Windows-based, and it seems to have everything, but i couldn't be bothered learning another sequencer. I like Acid, but if you are used to Sonar, I am not sure there is any great reason to move to Acid.

I have used Gigastudio for years. It is very powerful, but an absolute bitch to get working without hardware problems and software issues.

Have you tried the free Kore 2 player download from NI? It is beautifully simple to use and the free bundled sounds are great. You can buy additional sound packs at reasonable prices. Check out the demo video for Kore 2 as well - it was enough to make me upgrade to the full Kore 2 plus NI Komplete 5 bundle.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: RichardHK

Date:4/15/2008 2:25:12 AM

Thanks guys,

Should have realised 'hardware' = computer! Amazing how one track one's mind can get, especially late night. ;)

The more I work with my Acid Pro 6 trial version, the more I feel comfortable. But also finding the Sonar 7 trial rather tempting with all the added VSTi and other programs. Mind boggling capabilities. Found some MIDI bits needed to run my Fantom-X7 and Radias synths within AP6 but certainly not comprehensive.

My Vegas Pro was supposed to be MIDI-fied before now so I guess the Sony/SonicF guys have been thinking through how best to bring everything together - while maintaining reasonable income. Next step for Acid Pro could easily absorb Sound Forge at least, I would think.

Will check out Kore 2 as suggested. Another few soft-sounds ain't going to break the bank.

Thanks again.
Richard
Hong Kong

PS. Edited to update my evaluation findings...

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: thenoizzbox

Date:4/15/2008 5:14:29 AM

If you are looking into great, versatile synths, I've recently discovered and love Wusikstation (sampler/rompler, wavesequencer,synth). The developer is great and it comes with a ton of sounds and additional ones are quite afordable. There's a growing community developing around that platform and I think you really should check it out:

http://www.wusik.com

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: RichardHK

Date:4/16/2008 6:31:31 AM

Yes, Wusikstation looks and sounds very good. And a good offer to buy into v4 and get their new version when ready soon. Wish a few more software developers would follow that idea.
Will check it out thoroughly, thanks.
Richard
Hong Kong

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:4/16/2008 4:48:40 PM

<Snip>
"This DAW comparison is very useful, but sadly no AP6 info:
http://www.fetidus.com/DAWstuff/GiantMIDIcomparison.html"

This is just one sad example of how far behind Sony is compared to the rest of the DAW world. You can find all kinds of comparisons between other DAWs like Sonar, Cubendo, and Reaper. Acid is not even bothered to be compared to the others.. What makes it even worse is that Reaper's initial development only started less than 2 years ago. Not too far before Acid 6's release and Reaper has already surpassed Acid in popularity and feature set. It makes you wonder what Sony could actually do if this app was taken seriously.

Don't get me wrong. I love the Acid User interface. Beyond a good GUI....that's as far as my passion goes with Acid. I mean who would have thought....that we would be asking for Drag and Drop capability to move media onto different tracks in a DAW with the name "Pro"? It's like a bad joke, that never ends over here in Sony la la land.

I don't see how anyone could be surprised that Acid does not support Vista or any other 64 bit OS at this point. We're lucky if Sony can fix some of the bugs and release an update in less than 6 months from the original release.

I just want to know WHEN is Sony going to pull the plug on this project? I'm not asking "IF"......I'm asking "WHEN" because it WILL happen with their current rate of development and keeping up with the competition.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: RichardHK

Date:4/16/2008 7:44:22 PM

>> just want to know WHEN is Sony going to pull the plug on this project? I'm not asking "IF"......I'm asking "WHEN" because it WILL happen with their current rate of development and keeping up with the competition.<<

Maybe they WILL pull plug on Acid and make Vegas 9 the application we are all waiting for? As noted earlier, we don't need so many separate products to do an audio-visual job. Don't see Sony giving up - given the talented SF guys they have beavering away on something or other.

Richard
Hong Kong

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: thenoizzbox

Date:4/16/2008 9:00:23 PM

> I just want to know WHEN is Sony going to pull the plug on this project? I'm
> not asking "IF"......I'm asking "WHEN" because it WILL happen with their
> current rate of development and keeping up with the competition.

Right... and your evidence of that is?

Sony has already publicly stated that there will be an Acid Pro 7. I for one can't wait to see what it's like. Yes, it's taking a long time to come, especially since I cannot use AP6 on my current system. Acid had gained credibility as a DAW with version 6 and hopefully Sony has not lost too much momentum here. If version 7 is a great release it could do very well.

Vegas is not a replacement for Acid as it has no MIDI and to me and many others, that is crucial.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: RichardHK

Date:4/17/2008 1:37:40 AM

>>Vegas is not a replacement for Acid as it has no MIDI and to me and many others, that is crucial.<<

Certainly not current Vegas v8 but MIDI has been promised (and requested) for several versions now. I even remember folks expecting MIDI in Sound Forge v9 but alas, it never got there.

Vegas with MIDI is not such such a big step, as Vegas (and last Sound Forge v9) are already mighty audio multi-track DAWs. With the convergence of video and audio, all DAWs are going to need video editing down to frame level. Acid made that move, as well as Sonar has, and others must follow. Right?

Maybe Acid Pro 7 and Vegas Pro 9 (ie next versions) will be very similar. Hence my thinking that Acid Pro 7 need not appear, and just give all Acid users a simple upgrade to Vegas Pro 9

All speculation of course. But agree Sony will not leave any users, of any product, in the lurch. Can trust them on that.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: kbruff

Date:4/17/2008 4:35:06 AM

hopefully AP7 will regain respect and sustain a reputation that made the whole ACID looping concept and industry standard.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/17/2008 10:13:22 AM

but MIDI has been promised (and requested) for several versions now.

While MIDI has been requested in Vegas for a long time, it was never promised. (We never promise features will appear, as this would get us into trouble.)

Do you recall who promised you MIDI would be part of Vegas? (I hope it wasn't me<g>.)

When was this promise made?

Thanks
Peter

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: mista k

Date:4/17/2008 12:11:11 PM

Well this debate of Acid Pro 7 has been going on in this forum for many many months.
Why doesn't sony just give us a ballpark date on when to expect 7 or updates??????

Do they really think it's more detrimental to loyal base to specifiy a time range and not hit it. Rather, have them think they are being ignored and leave us to ponder on the idea that there may never be a true acid 7?

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/17/2008 10:39:31 PM

Sorry, but we never pre-announce dates. This is our policy.

I don't see how any user hear can feel like they are being ignored. We are here and discuss the use, application, and problems with forum members.

It has already been stated that there will be a new version of ACID.

I guess my question to all of this is why is ACID 6 not working for you? (This goes for any user.)

Peter

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: RichardHK

Date:4/18/2008 1:34:46 AM

>>Do you recall who promised you MIDI would be part of Vegas? (I hope it wasn't me<g>.)
When was this promise made?<<

Dear Peter,

Certainly not you, I am sure!? I will do some research to find out, but 'promise' may not be the right word of course!

I have been with Vegas since Vegas Video v2 and spent many hours through to v8 on the Creative Cow and DVInfonet forums where most Sony info was 'leaked', urrr discussed by Spot (DSE) before he got more involved with Sony promotion with his VASST job. Spot (Douglas) certainly clammed up several years ago, but not before he had talked about MIDI which is close to his heart of course.

From what I remember, Spot assured many of us that Sony was listening to the cries for MIDI and it was 'sure to be' implemented within the next couple of revisions or so. That message was when we were on v4/5!! Sony's takeover of Sonic Foundry caused much concern at the time, so maybe it was Spot's way to make people feel better. :)

From my own fallible memory, and will do some searching and see what I can turn up.

Best regards,
Richard

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: thenoizzbox

Date:4/18/2008 8:39:48 AM

Peter,

Acid Pro 6 would be fine for me... if it worked on Vista 64... ;-)

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:4/22/2008 8:26:33 AM

"Right... and your evidence of that is?"

My Evidence??? Every time I open Acid 6, I have plenty of evidence. Every time I read comparison DAW reviews and see no mention of Acid, I have plenty of evidence. Every time I read professional industry mags and I don't see any marketing of Acid, I have plenty of evidence. Every time I visit this forum and see the same posts from 2 weeks ago still on the front page, because there is not a lot of activity on this forum, it shows plenty of evidence. Every time I read posts like yours stating how Acid does not work on the lastest OSes, while all the other competitive software does, and there seems to be no urgency by Sony....I see plenty of evidence. Every time I read a post from a Sony rep that states there will be no feature additions until the next full version update, while the competitive offerings are continuously adding feature updates, I see plenty of evidence. Every time I see a Live "7" or Sonar "7" major feature upgrade and Acid is on version 6.0 and it's development started long before those offerings....I see plenty of evidence, that Sony is not fully supporting Acid. Like ALL products, if you FAIL to keep up with the market segment you're in, then your product WILL fail in that market segment. So there's plenty of evidence, that Sony already does not fully support the continued development in Acid that is needed.

How much more evidence do you want? Some of us are not blind to what is happening in the DAW world around us, so there's plenty of evidence if you just open your eyes and look around.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: thenoizzbox

Date:4/22/2008 12:59:22 PM

I'm sorry but, none of that is evidence. It's all pure speculation and none of it even comes close to proving that Acid Pro is dead. Wether Sony is falling behind the competition is irrelevant here and may even be an incentive for them to deliver an even better product.

All we know for sure is that Sony has publicly stated more than once that Acid Pro 7 is coming. We don't know when or what changes it will bring, or how the new features will compare to the competition. All we know is it's coming. Up until then, I have better things to do but speculate about what might or might not happen in the future.

In the meantime, I've found another DAW that works great on my new system and with which I'm starting to get productive (Reaper). If Acid Pro 6 worked correctly on that system I'd still be using that and probably be even more productive but I had to find an alternative. I'm not blind, I'm just being pragmatic. Speculation will get you nowhere.

Subject:RE: from Sonar to Acid

Reply by: guitacid

Date:4/22/2008 11:00:04 PM

Acid Pro accomplishes different things to different people.

Many of you might be audio professionals and Acid is probably a tool of trade that helps earn you your income. In those cases i'd understand that you are frustrated at perceived/real shortcomings with the program. You can see what functionality needs to be rectified or added but you have to wait.

I'm on Acid Pro v3. My computer is 6 years old. I don't need or want Vista. With XP Pro Acid purrs. Importantly I'm not an audio professional. I'm a home recording musician whom hacks away on his guitar and keeps a record of the good stuff by recording it. I do what i love doing which is composing. Composing isn't easy but recording and fleshing it out is a doddle thanks to Acid. The interface is clean and simple. It doesn't get in the way. I've never been more productive than in this age of the software recording app. I remember the days of the 4 track cassette. Programming a drum machine? My head hurts!

Yer the music technology media is awash with references to "pro" apps like Pro Fools, Apple Tragic and Cakedork Explodar and somehow Acid isn't considered big league. So what? We're composing and recording music not finding the origin of the universe.

Sony has done a great job so far. Provided a productive tool that gets the job done. Keep it up Sony. Don't stuff it up though. Sheeeesh!