Subject:Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Posted by: Greg_M

Date:2/15/2008 12:45:38 AM

I just upgraded my Waves version 5 plug-ins to 5.7.9 (mostly bug fixes) and found out that Waves no longer supports DirectX plug-ins. Also, Acid Pro 6 doesn't seem to be able to recognize the VST Waveshell for v 5.9.7.

What this means, at this time, is that the new version of Waves plug-ins don't work with ACID Pro6.

Sony, can you help us out here.

Thanks,
Greg

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:2/15/2008 3:40:24 AM

Wow that sounds bad...
Can you tell us what VST / DirectX Waves plugins don't show up ?

I'm pretty interested in buying the API collection... If they don't show up in Acid that would definitely be a turnoff for me ^^

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: Greg_M

Date:2/15/2008 9:19:38 AM

Zacchino,

According to the Waves Application Support Chart they don't do DirectX for any of their plug-ins for any application. They only show RTAS and VST.

The VST versions should be showing up in ACID, but they don't. ACID does not recognize the Waves 5.9.7 VST Waveshell for some reason. Both Sound Forge 9 and Vegas Pro 8 both do recognize the VST Waveshell and the Waves plug-ins work just fine.

For what its worth, I have the Waves RenMaxx bundle and Waves Tune. With Waves latest implementation they have almost all of their plug-ins running from a single Waveshell. So if your application doesn't recognize it, the plug-ins don't work.

Since it looks like Waves has dropped the DirectX format, it would be important for us to get this VST Waveshell issue sorted out. Otherwise, there won't be any using Waves plug-ins in ACID.

Thanks,
Greg

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: Kennymusicman

Date:2/15/2008 12:01:44 PM

FWIW - it's not just Sony's apps that are having problems with Waves Hell

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: MacMoney

Date:2/15/2008 7:35:31 PM

Why does it have to be Waves Hell?
Acid & CDA are the only Sony apps that doesn't work with the new Waves 5.9.7 VST.
If Sound Forge 9 and Vegas 8 work fine would that point to a Waves issue?
You will probably see Waves VST support in Acid 7 or CDA 6

George Ware

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: iain_m

Date:2/17/2008 4:47:07 PM

Well, it isn't exactly "hell" -- we're only talking about plugins, after all, even if they are expensive.

The older version of Waves still works perfectly with Acid "as is", so I'm happy...up to a point.

What's very odd, though, is that SF and Vegas are supported by this new Waves release. I can understand why CDA would be dropped, since it is DX only, but of course Acid works fine with many other VST plugins.

I asked Waves if they could give any indication as to whether they will support Acid again in the future, and they said they 'honestly don't know' at this time.

I've also emailed Sony. All I'm curious to know is whose hands this issue is in -- does Acid need to be updated, but it just hasn't been updated in time for the Waves release, or is there something so odd about the waveshell that means it'll never ever work with Acid? The latter seems unlikely, given that the waveshell works ok with SF and Vegas.

Puzzling times... but as I say, although it's frustrating not to be able to use the new plugins, let's not forget the older version works "as is".

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: Greg_M

Date:2/17/2008 7:40:36 PM

iain m,

It is not acceptable to rely on older versions of software long term. With Waves for instance, you can't run the new version and the old version on the same computer at the same time. The reason the new version was released was to fix problems. Waves had to make some fixes to address some Pro Tools compatibility issues under Vista.

The other thing that shouldn't be overlooked is that there is a market for 3rd party plug-ins because they offer something that doesn't come with the Native application. Whether it is a different sound, added functionality, or whatever, chances are that the plug-ins filled the need not to mention that the plug-in probably cost more than the native application (ACID in this case).

To be completely open about this, I have been doing most of my work lately in Pro Tools. That was not the case 5 years ago. There are still times when I would prefer to use ACID but the reality is that I could get along without it now due to the additional functionality in Pro Tools.

In the DAW world there needs to be some level of development partnering amongst DAW and plug-in companies and the users need to be kept informed. It was totally unacceptable for Waves to drop DirectX support (even though we could all see it coming at some point) and not let the user base know. Sony knows this too and needs to embrace VST fully in all of its applications to protect its customer base. The entire world of digital audio will be using VST and RTAS only for everything and everyone knows it. It is almost like having the proverbial elephant in the room and ignoring it.

The companies that provide digital audio tools to us need to acknowledge the elephant in the room and become development partners to keep these kinds of things from happening.

The fact is, this is a lot bigger issue than just standards based VST support for ACID. All of the DAW/plug-in suppliers need to agree on what the standards really mean and implement accordingly.

Sorry for this long post, but ultimately, we will be the ones paying for this kind of nonsense. I have to ask myself, do I really need the level of duplication of applications that I currently have? No I don't and if forced to make economic decisions about this I won't be dropping Pro Tools.

What do you think?

Thanks for your patience,
Greg

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: iain_m

Date:2/18/2008 3:57:53 AM

Dear Greg

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I do basically agree with you; I just get tired of Waves-bashing on internet forums, which is often phrased in terms of 'Waves lied to me!', when in fact their software, like all software, is sold 'as is', and works as such.

There's been similar unfounded ranting on here about Sony, of course, and it doesn't help the discussion, even if the emotions behind it should be respected.

That said, I use both Waves and Acid, so I'm directly affected by this 5.9.7 issue, and I'm not happy about the situation. Now I don't feel cheated by either company (as I'm sure some users will say) but I do feel frustrated because I chose Acid partly because it was officially supported by Waves.

The 5.9.7 update is particularly tantalising because it enables some previously inaccessible plugins (e.g. L3-LL) in Sound Forge and Vegas.

I am now seriously considering Pro Tools M-Powered (I already have a compatible interface) as an alternative to Acid.

In many ways it would be a shame to switch hosts, because I really like having the same GUI conventions in my wave editor (SF) and sequencer (Acid). But I increasingly realise the importance of choosing software on the basis of how far it's 'future-proof', rather than just how easy it is to use out of the box.

And perhaps the most future-proof thing I can say about DAW software is that Waves plugins will always be compatible with Pro Tools!

The niggling question now is -- having paid my WUP fee (which, again, is not a trick or evil, as some say), will I ever get updated Waves plugins that work with Acid? Or is will it be a matter of paying for Acid 7? And if so, when? And what new bugs may that bring?

Another consideration is that if I move to 5.9.7 later, song arrangements containing earlier Waves plugins will need to be rebuilt. The DX versions will, I assume, not be silently replaced by the VST versions. So that makes me think I should switch DAW now -- again, for the sake of being 'future proof' -- rather than work on songs in Acid 6 only to later either (1) rebuild them with VST plugins in Acid 7, or, (2) even worse, rebuild the songs in another DAW when they're more developed and there's more to rebuild, because I find Waves will *never* again be supported in Acid.

So anyway, I won't ramble more, but I do feel in a predicament.

I would like some more information from Sony and/or Waves so I could make an informed decision about what to do next.

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: Greg_M

Date:2/18/2008 7:22:28 AM

iain m,

Sorry if my post sounded like another Waves/Sony rant. I didn't mean for it to sound like that.

The benefit of open architecture (VST implementation in this case) is that, in the end, the user is supposed to benefit from the increased number of options and the competition holding prices down. What I think I see here is variance in VST spec interpretation and implementation. Couple this with stubborness as to which company is implementing properly and you may as well not have a spec. It really is time for all of the companies supplying this kind of software to get together resolve their issues.

MacMoney,

I really hope that you are correct about ACID and CDA being compliant with Waves plug-ins in a not to distance update of some kind. My gut feeling is that either Waves or ACID will require a major overhaul to be compatible. I don't really know squat about the details of the non-compatibility, but I would guess that it has a lot to do with MIDI impementation and VST implementation. Neither Vegas or Sound Forge are MIDI applications so the issue doesn't arise. As far as CDA goes, I think Sony continues to fail to realize that this little app is favored highly by a large consumer base for Mastering as well as burning CD's. But, Sony's lack of continued development keeps consumers from jumping in. While it's true that you can master in Vegas, Sound Forge, Pro Tools, or any number of applications it really is not the same from a workflow perspective. It feels to me like Sony would like to see CDA just go away and maybe viewed as a redundant application. To me, its real value would be as a dedicated mastering application that would also burn CD's. If viewed as a CD burning application - who needs another one? There are dozens of free ones out there. Also, I would think that VST support wouldn't be that difficult since there is no MIDI to get in the way.

Well, I've really spent too much time on this stuff. No more long winded posts from me - I promise. I just want to make music and will deal with whatever develops in a fashion that works for me.

Happy Presidents Day,
Greg

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: iain_m

Date:2/18/2008 7:53:32 AM

No worries Greg -- your points are well-made and I didn't mean for it to sound like I was criticising your posts. (It was more a feeling of, 'I bet the Waves-haters will now start posting and just disrupt any useful discussion'...).

Couldn't agree with you more about CDA. The workflow is superb for mastering.

I'd hate to have to start over with another host. Let's see what Sony say...

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: bgc

Date:2/18/2008 10:47:01 AM

There's an application on the web called

"shell2vst.exe"

It's a program that you drop Waveshells onto to create your own VST versions of the Waves plugins. It basically creates VST dll pointers to the Waves folder. You can put these in your VSTplugins folder.

It's worked for me on older Waveshells in Acid/Vegas/etc.

This might be a short term workaround until Sony figures out what's up.

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: Zacchino

Date:2/18/2008 3:38:35 PM

I found a link to download the Shell2VST.exe program.

[url]http://www.xlutop.com/buzz/zip/shell2vst.zip

Instructions :

Go to the WaveShell folder of your computer, generally found in the VSTPlugins folder, look for the WaveShell-VST_5.9.5.dll file and drag & drop it on the Shell2VST.exe program (extract this executable in the same folder of the waveshells folder for that matter).

It might ask you for the Program Files\Waves\Plug-Ins directory where the Waves installer stores all the original .dll of the plugins linked to the WaveShells.

If you have issues with the 5.7, 5.5, (V-Series, Stomp, X-Noise etc.) and Vocal Bundle 5.1 aswell; just repeat the same proceedure with these Waveshell-VST 5.*.dll files (drag & drop them on the executable).

What does it do ? It creates a new "WAVES" folder within your Waves folder containing all the WaveShell.dll files, and drops in it all the .dll that the WaveShell version is pointing at. The next time you'll open your VST Host, it'll find out all these new .dll VST Fx.

Can people tell me if it worked on Acid Pro ???

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: iain_m

Date:2/18/2008 3:51:23 PM

Haven't tried this because I don't want to risk having to reinstall the old version after uninstalling it and upgrading.

I did try it once before, though -- can't remember with which host, possibly Live -- and found it mostly worked but was occasionally a bit weird, e.g. opening the plugins with strange (non-default, at least not the default I wanted) settings.

TBH the more I think about this the more tiresome it gets: not only may I now have to depend on Acid 7 for a fix (which kind of defeats the "pay upfront" model of WUP), but I've also got to wait for the next version of CDA. :-/

It's VERY unusual for Waves to drop support for a host altogether within versions -- suggests there's either been some Sony/Waves bust-up behind the scenes, or that a fix is immanent.

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:2/21/2008 2:42:52 PM

ACID 6 users are advised to use DX versions of Waves Diamond, Z-Noise, SSL, and V-series (version 5) plug-ins if at all possible.

The next version of ACID Pro will support Waves VST versions 5.9.7 and later. Current versions of Vegas Pro 8 and Sound Forge Pro 9 already support Waves VST versions 5.9.7.

Waves version 5 plug-ins are still available for sale and for download from Waves for users of any host apps that pre-date the release of Waves 5.9.7.

SCS DEV

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: bgc

Date:2/21/2008 2:57:49 PM

The conversion worked on Acid Pro for me.

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:2/21/2008 3:08:21 PM

Older SCS applications, including ACID, explicitly ignore anything named "waveshell*.dll". This (mutual) decision predates Waves' discontinuing DirectX support.

All you should have to do is rename or copy "waveshell*.dll" to "_waveshell*.dll" or something similar and re-scan from the VST Effects page in Preferences.

J.

Subject:RE: Acid Doesn't See Waves 5.9.7 VST's

Reply by: Greg_M

Date:2/21/2008 10:31:35 PM

Forum Admin,

Thank you very much. Renaming and rescanning did the trick.

Thanks,
Greg