Subject:How should I measure if my audio is too loud?

Posted by: Nick Hope

Date:2/18/2008 8:56:19 AM

Apologies for this being something of a cross post but perhaps the video forum was not the best place to ask this.

I've had some criticism that my web vidoes are too loud.

How can I assure that the audio in my videos is appropriately loud for the internet or DVD? Specifically which meters in Sound Forge should I use and what levels should I be targeting?

My head is totally fried with reading about VU and PPM meters and really I just need some guidelines.

Thanks!

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too loud?

Reply by: Greg_M

Date:2/18/2008 9:37:20 AM

Nick,

Your question is an excellent one. In fact, Bob Katz has addressed this very issue. I would suggest that you buy his book "Mastering Audio" , read it, and then buy a good set of meters (Plug-ins) that utilize the K-System. Two plug-ins come to mind. One is by Roger Nichols called Inspector XL. It also has a bunch of additional analysis tools that are useful and not redundant with Sound Forge. The other plug-in that I like is PSP Xenon. It is actually a very uncolored Mastering Limiter with K-System metering. A nice feature of this plug-in is that the plug-in can generate noise (can't remember if it's white or pink) so you can set your monitor levels properly.

Using the K-System with proper metering takes the guess work out of setting levels. Suggested levels are different for film, music/CD, and broadcast. The book explains all of the details of managing appropriate levels while maintaining the proper amount of headroom for dynamic range. Here is a link to Bob Katz' web site.

http://www.digido.com/

Hope this helps,
Greg

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too l

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:2/18/2008 10:12:34 AM

I've listened to your audio track and looked at it on every meter I own including SF, Vegas, and Paul Marshall's excellent free PPM and VU meters at [url]http://www.darkwood.demon.co.uk/PC/meter.html

The thing that struck me, both aurally and visually, is that your stock audio is compressed into essentially the top 12db (-12db -> -0.1db) of program space. Even brain-pounding club techno generally has more dynamic range than that. That is way overcompressed by my taste, and the reason a few people have told you it is subjectively "loud." Adjusting the peak volume isn't going to alter the effects of overcompression in the source (except to make it worse if your peaks bump the 0db ceiling).

I put a picture of the first minute of your "wall of sound" up at
********
so you can see what I'm talking about.

Suggest you try a different source audio . . .

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too l

Reply by: Nick Hope

Date:2/18/2008 11:38:33 AM

Thanks Greg, I read the stuff on Bob Katz' site about the K-system and I'll try and get hold of the book.

Both those plugins you mention are $249 which I don't really want to spend at the moment.

I installed the free PSP VintageMeter VST plugin and put it on the master FX chain in Vegas. The 2nd post on this thread describes how to set it up to the K-system. It seems to work.

Musicvid, I see what you mean about the compression. Thanks for that.

By the way I can't work out how to get Paul Marshall's meters to show anything at the moment. I'm on XP x64 with an Echo Gina 3G sound card (which I use for Vegas and Sound Forge) and Analog Devices Soundmax integrated on my mobo. Any clues how to get them monitoring playback?

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too l

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:2/18/2008 11:51:59 AM

Try setting your onboard audio card as the default recording device in Windows. I think his meters only work on the Windows Classic drivers from the Mapper.

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too l

Reply by: Nick Hope

Date:2/18/2008 12:12:52 PM

Default recording device was already set to that. In theory should they then just monitor whatever is played through that soundcard, for example if I play the file in Windows Media Player?

On his page he says:

"IT DOES NOT INDICATE PLAYBACK OUTPUT LEVELS. There is no way I know to access the output from another program. This meter indicates only what is fed into the wave input channel.

To monitor playback output levels feed the wave output back into the wave input, either externally with a cable or by using the Windows Mixer if you have this option."

Anyone know how to get this working?

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too l

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:2/18/2008 6:45:21 PM

My friend Paul explained it correctly.

For something like WMP, which uses the mapper, you would either:

1) Set both the preferred record and playback devices to your classic driver card, making sure your Record Options in Windows are set properly (I don't know how they are listed for your card), and that you are using a full-duplex device; or,
2) Run a cable from the line-out on your Gina to the line-in on your onboard card, again being sure that the Record Option in Windows is set to Line-In or Record Master or something like that.

For playback from the Vegas timeline, there are a number of options -- again, you may have to set the default Record Device and Options in Windows, and choose the Classic Windows drivers in Vegas Audio Options. Then you should be able to switch from monitor to metering by the little switch on the Master Mixer.

Or, if it's too much hassle, use the meters in Vegas or Sound Forge. They work just fine. Sorry but my setup is not the same as yours, but keep trying, you'll get it!

Again, your levels are high, but not out of range, as far as I can tell from your flash video. I believe your source audio is the culprit, and replacing it is the solution.

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too l

Reply by: owlsroost

Date:2/19/2008 12:07:14 PM

The free 'RMS Buddy' VST plug-in is handy for monitoring average & peak levels - http://destroyfx.smartelectronix.com/extras/

Tony

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too l

Reply by: Nick Hope

Date:2/20/2008 5:12:50 AM

Cheers Tony.

Topic continued on the Vegas Video forum.

Subject:RE: How should I measure if my audio is too l

Reply by: Bob N

Date:2/24/2008 6:05:36 AM

Reading this thread made me wonder if this is why my CD does nod sound as good as the LP of McPartland at the piano. Switching between the two, the volume on the CD is about twice as loud. Am I setting the recording volume too high? What should the peak be hitting? I have been just making sure it doesn't clip. The range is set to 90-0db.