1 - Thank you. I'm sane after all (relatively)
2 - hmm... it is set to 1. And even if I assign an audio track directly to LFE, it still won't show up in final render.

Does this LFE thing work for anyone?

What file format are you rendering to? I've done this with tracks directly routed to the LFE and with a submix bus and it worked fine when rendering to AC3 and to multi-channel mono .wav files (output render set to "mono, multi").

OK, thanks again. I tested the .wav (mono, multi) and lo-and-behold: the LFE was there.

On the other hand there is no easy way to test AC3 (except than putting it to a DVD) because it cannot be loaded to Vegas timeline.

I've been testing this using AVCHD which, if I'm right, should have 5.1 surround. At least it claims to be rendering to AC3 and there is "enable LFE" -selection on the Audio -tab (for some reason the audio selection says "Dolby Digital AC3 Studio" not "Pro"). Anyway, no LFE gets recorded (or it is not shown on Vegas timeline). All the other channels are ok and configured correctly on the timeline.

Comment: when checking the m2ts-file properties in Vegas it shows two audio streams in the file: stereo downmix and 5.1 surround... as you can see below:

Streams
Video: 00:00:17,440, 25,000 fps interlaced, 1440x1080x32, AVC
Audio 1: 00:00:17,440, 48 000 Hz; 5.1 Surround (stereo downmix), Dolby AC-3
Audio 2: 00:00:17,440, 48 000 Hz; 5.1 Surround, Dolby AC-3

Correct me if I am wrong (and sorry - I'm not highjack your thread, MRe) - but is it really necessary to use buses at all?

When I'm preparing a 5.1 sound, all I'm doing is (just a typical example):

- pan the original stereo track to FL and FR
- pan the overimposed mono narration track to FC
- create some music in Cinescore and pan it more to BL and BR

When rendering, I just enable LFE below the threshold of choice - and I'm good to go... Of course should I need some LFE special effects, I'd create yet another soundtrack for them and assign it to LFE.

So, are buses obligatory, and when?

Piotr

You should be able to test the AC3 file by playing it in your DVD-playing software - no need to put it on a DVD.

I don't know if all DVD-playing software will do this, but certainly the Cyberlink PowerDVD that I use will happily play an AC3 file if you ask it.

Mark

Anyway, I would like to get confirmed from someone out there if Vegas 5.1 sound is truly broken or is it something I'm doing (or not doing) or my system is faulty.

((Its not broken))

I have two issues with 5.1 surround sound:
a) a bus assigned to LFE does not show audio levels (i.e. it does not show anything) on audio meters,

((How are you routing the output? jsut becuase you assign it to a bus, it does not mean that the bus itself is configured to feed into the master output monitors. Vegas is VERY meticulous in its configuration regarding audio. ))

even though the LFE level is shown on master (and follows the bus envelope if used). This worked in Vegas 7

((Could well be a broken element in V8 then.. then again the dodgy AVCHD DD 5.1 encoder is a joke IMO. it should be as refined as the standard encoder. Not thsi bullshit consumer crap that doesnt even let you configure compression and downmix levels))

b) nothing actually goes to subfoower/LFE. If I render a 5.1 audio (I for example have Sony SES Audio Library, which has 5.1 sound effects) and then bring the end result back to timeline, LFE is a straight line -> dead.

((Makes sense... but why not just create an LFE track and bypass the bus altogether?
To be honest, yo dont need ot use bus tracks. For 99% of my work, i dont even bother with it
In my 6 or so years of using Sonic foundry/Sony surround sound apps, ive neever used a bus for LFE or standard dialogue/orchestral channels.
i do however use duplicate track sent to bus which is fitted with a myriad of plugins, but this is only for rear channels or spacial effects, Not actual dialogue, soundtrack or LFE.

My normal 5.1 setup is following:
- all audio tracks are normal surround-tracks and their volume gets routed to master

- then I have one bus (let's say Bus A) assigned to LFE and routed to Surrond Master.
((WHy? You dont need to do this...

If I need to use LFE, I just enable the bus A envelope and adjust the volume by using it

I dont see the relevance in doing this considering the LFE channel adds spacial harmonics within the actual mix.

What you SHOULD be doing is creating your rmix while ommiting the LFE channel.
Once you have created your mix, go and duplicate said track, and assign the new duplicated track to LFE.
Every freq above or below a certain threshold (as assigned within the project properties) will be set to those values within the LFE channel.

In here, on the track level, you can then tweak the envelope to your hearts content and most of the work is already done for you.

If there is a specific freq your messing with within the LFE, u can then tweak on the track level.

What you are doing with teh bus track is obsolete and a waste of time and energy. It will not provide you with better results and will not provide you with greater flexibility

Have I understood correctly that everything that has been assigned/routed to surround master ends up to final audio track and if it is not assigned to master it won't get rendered?

Put it this way. If you can hear it, you can render it. Its that simple. If your render isnt filling all channels, then theres somethign wrong with the render engine.

((How are you routing the output? jsut becuase you assign it to a bus, it does not mean that the bus itself is configured to feed into the master output monitors. Vegas is VERY meticulous in its configuration regarding audio. ))

Routing is OK, since I can render 5.1 as separate mono-files AND it shows LFE level on surround master but not on the bus it is assigned to. Vice-versa I could understand but not this.

((Makes sense... but why not just create an LFE track and bypass the bus altogether?

OK. But I do use it and I think that it should work since it is there. Why do I assign LFE to a bus and not use LFE-dedicated track?
a) because I do not like of duplicating the audio. I've just too many times lost the synch on those audio clips while moving things around
b) this way I can direct multiple audio clips to LFE simultaneously w/o needing to duplicate those all
c) and just because

What you are doing with teh bus track is obsolete and a waste of time and energy.

Could be. I have lots of energy, though ;)

If you can hear it, you can render it. Its that simple.

I hear it. I cannot render it.

If your render isnt filling all channels, then theres somethign wrong with the render engine.

Exactly my initial question.

Megabit:
Buses are not mandatory. See my explanation above why I've chosen to use those.

But your method... hmmm... if you do not feed anything explicitely (sp.) to LFE channel it won't go there. Or am I wrong here?

One common "feature", while testing LFE on home-grade surround system, is to hear low sounds from sub-woofer even though LFE-channel is not actually used. In most of the commercial grade (read:cheap/small) systems the 5 speakers are not full-spectrum. Instead they can only provide mid-to-high frequencies and all low freq's are played through sub-woofer. Therefore even though you do not direct any sound to LFE/sub-woofer the system itself does it during playback (this is so called bass-management).

Which actually introduces one big caveat: you can easily overdrivre sub-woofer even though your audio meters are all well in green if you feed the LFE directly at the same time.

But to summarize: the whole LFE -channel is not mandatory. It is there just to scare neighbours ;)

You should be able to test the AC3 file by playing it in your DVD-playing software - no need to put it on a DVD.

Thanks! Nero plays AC3 also. And the LFE was there after all.

I also tested on wmv, which has its own 5.1 support and Windows Mediaplayer played LFE happily away.

So, the setup is OK.

But, for some reason Nero (or any other PC-app I have) cannot play Sony AVCHD m2ts-file produced by Vegas and if I bring the rendered m2ts file back to timeline, LFE is totally muted.

My stand-alone mediaplayer-device can play those m2ts-files and sub-woofer is quiet as grave.

So it looks like this is AVCHD-problem after all.

I tried rendering to a .m2ts directly from Vegas 8a (AVC and AC3 muxed together). Didn't hear any audio during playback using Nero or PowerDVD, albiet both said they contained AC-3. Bringing back into Vegas, nothing. I didn't do anything fancy in the project set-up - just selected Audio/5.1 and used those defaults. If I render separately to AC-3 and MPG-2, I can mux them together and all is fine. I don't have tools to mux AVC and AC-3 together.

My m2ts files, created with Vegas "Burn BD disk", play fine in all 5.1 channels - both as files on HDD, and on the BDs actually burned - using Nero Showtime or WinDVD BD or PowerDVD.

However, the way Vegas itself recognizes them is inconsistent and depends on file size !

Unfortunately, Vegas 8a is refusing to render at the moment without crashing, but what I did notice is:
1) If you use the Render As, and select muxed AVCHD .m2ts, it uses the Studio AC-3 codec.
2) If you use Burn BD disk, is uses the Pro AC-3 codec.

Not sure if that makes a difference, but will try once I get Vegas rendering again.

I have run into a similar problem and so far the tech I'm working with at Sony tech support has indicated that this might actaully be a bug that is currently being worked on.

I made a test file that runs the sound around to each individual speaker (I sent this file in to Sony tech Support for them to test and it appears they have comfirmed this). Although it also appears this might be somewhat hardware dependent as not everyone is seeing the same results.

In my case I can isolate the sound to every speaker in the system except the rear channels. When rendered, the rear channels always end up on the front channels.

Thanks Mark.

There is definitely something weird with Vegas surround. I rendered exactly the same surround test-project to m2ts and wmv. m2ts works ok, except missing LFE, wmv on the other hand plays rear channels on front, and no LFE. I'm starting to suspect that my mediaplyer is faulty...

I'll burn a test DVD later on to check plain vanilla DVD surround setup.

Why do I assign LFE to a bus and not use LFE-dedicated track?
a) because I do not like of duplicating the audio. I've just too many times lost the synch on those audio clips while moving things around

This is why i said to duplicate the track AFTER your stereo/fx mix has been completed.
Once duplicated, youd run it through a test right, so to see that it sounds corrct for what u need. If it doesnt, all u need to do then is tweak that section. Jsut make sure ripple of off...

b) this way I can direct multiple audio clips to LFE simultaneously w/o needing to duplicate those all

((Only if those individual tracks are assigned to LFE via the track level. I just tried this on V7...

INsterted audio track, assigned it to Bus!A. Bus A is then assigned to LFE.
I can see the stereo feed going into the bus, then the send to LFE no problem
Did a quick render.. works a treat..
Rounted a fruther 6 tracks to the same bus... again works a treat...
Routed one particular track through to 3 busses, and all 3 worked a treat...

I would say i ur render engine puking itself...

I still dotn get why youd want to route into an LFE bus, i mean fair enough its impressive when you have a 280 track mix using surround environment, but to be honest, it does nto give you any more power, or any more additional option than it would by duplicting the track after you finish ur mix

c) and just because

((dunno why i bother..