Subject:FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Posted by: Vondo333

Date:12/1/2007 6:07:10 PM

Hello,
Here are my specs:
Win XP SP2
AMD 64 / 3400+ / 2.40 GHz / 2GB ram
M-Audio Firewire 410 Audio Interface
Midisport USB 8x8 Midi Interface
Acid Pro 6.0d

Here is my problem.
I have been for sometime trying to figure out how to sync my AP6 w/ my Roland MV-8000. There seems to be a timecode lag problem and there is no documentation to shed light on how to fix this problem.
I have tried tweaking all the advance controls in AP6 and still the problem exist. I have tried the AP6 as master generating code, and I have tried AP6 as slave receiving code. Still a little more than half way thru a song it gradually starts lagging. Does anyone know of a solution that does not require me buying a new midi interface. I say this because there is nothing wrong with the interface. I have been able to tweak the advance controls in AP6 so that the click from the MV-8000 is synced perfectly with the click from the AP6, but as always a little more than half way thru the lagging starts happening as though AP6 simply can't keep up. I don't believe this. I believe that there is a solution in AP6 controls, and somebody knows what it is. Anybody want to share knowledge.

Thanks in advance for your help
Vondo333

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/2/2007 10:52:15 AM

MIDI Time Code input in ACID is limited to trigger start. This means that ACID will start when it is told to by the master device. From this point on it will be locked to the audio hardware clock. If there is a means, you need to use a common clock between your sound card and the Roland or use the Roland as your sound card if possible.

MTC or MIDI Clock generation is based upon the clock of your audio hardware as well. This means that the slave has to adjust for time changes on the fly (it must implement true chase).

How do you have your system connected?

Peter

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Reply by: Vondo333

Date:12/2/2007 1:36:17 PM

Thank You for responding.
My system is connected this way:

M-Audio Firewire 410 is connected to the firewire port at the rear of the computer. Although it has midi it is used solely as an audio card or interface.

USB Midisport 8x8/s is connected directly to a USB port in the back of the computer, not thru a hub.

MV-8000 is connected into/out of port 4 in the 8x8/s.

There is a timecode clock for writing code built into the 8x8, but I have never used it.

There are some other modules plugged into the 8x8, but they don't generate code.

"MTC or MIDI Clock generation is based upon the clock of your audio hardware as well. This means that the slave has to adjust for time changes on the fly (it must implement true chase)."

I understand this statement. What I don't understand is how to apply it to AP6 as the slave. In some older workstations that I have used it was as simple as clicking the "Chase" control, and it all just seem to work.

My sound card is set at 1536 samples for the ASIO/WDM buffer size.
Does this have anything to do with the midi lag?

You tell me what you think I should do and I will give it a shot, because I have exhausted my knowledge of this area.

Thanks for your help
Vondo333

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Reply by: JohnnyRoy

Date:12/2/2007 8:06:24 PM

> My sound card is set at 1536 samples for the ASIO/WDM buffer size.

This is definitely too high. It should be set to 256 or 512 maximum. This will only affect MIDI if you are using soft synths but in general, you have it set too high.

If you want to use MIDI Clock, ACID must be the master. It will not chase it. So you want to trigger the MV-8000 from ACID's MIDI Clock to keep them in sync.

~jr

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Reply by: Vondo333

Date:12/2/2007 9:23:23 PM

Thank you Johnny,
I did know that anything higher than 512 was too high, but for some reason it is working and eliminating all the pops that I was getting when recording vocals. I left it this way because I am tired of all the troubleshooting. I just want to get on with the business of making music.

I am not using any soft synths.

It seems that no matter what I have done there still seems to be a lag.
I would prefer to use timecode instead of just the midi clock, but I'll take whatever works best at this point.


Thanks again for your help.
Vondo333

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/3/2007 9:04:41 AM

ACID cannot slave "chased' to an external device. ACID will trigger and then run free. This is why you must sync the audio clocks between the Roland and your Firewire 410.

That is the Roland or the 410 must be set up as the master clock source. Not a SMPTE or MTC sync, but a sample rate frequency lock. If you do not do this, then the two audio clocks will drift apart over time.

Some how you need to lock your PC and the Roland to the same sample rate clock.

From looking at the manual for the Roland, it does not offer a workclock connection. It appears to offer light-pipe connections. It may be possible to use this connected to your 410 as a common clock source. This would require a setting change in both the Roland and 410. This should be covered in their collective use manuals.

Peter

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Reply by: Vondo333

Date:12/3/2007 9:49:54 AM

Thanks for your response Peter.

"It appears to offer light-pipe connections. It may be possible to use this connected to your 410 as a common clock source."

I am a little confused about how this would work, but I will investigate this and let you know what I discover. I know that anyone who has a stand-alone sampler/drum machine or other devices, and is trying to sync to AP6 is going to want to know how to make this happen.

If you find out anything else that would be helpful, please don't hesitate to share.

Thanks for your help!
Vondo333

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Reply by: pwppch

Date:12/3/2007 5:56:44 PM

>>I know that anyone who has a stand-alone sampler/drum machine or other devices, and is trying to sync to AP6 is going to want to know how to make this happen<<

No they wont. If you are slaving a device like this then you would use ACID as the MIDI Clock master and let the device slave to it. Since MIDI Clock provides tempo accurate information, the device will stay in sync. I do this all the time with external drum machines and other devices that have "sequencers" that can be triggered/sync externally.

You are trying to sync a hardware "DAW" to ACID.

FWIW: I just tested this with a much older Roland hardware DAW and ACID works just fine in both the role of the Master or Slave to MIDI Time Code. I noticed no timing drift during a 4 and half minute song I record on the hardware.

I did have to connect my computer's audio hardware wordclock to the word clock on my external recorder. Once I did this, everything triggered and then stayed in sync when ACID was the slave. There was no need to use this when ACID was the master as the external device chased to the time code, though it did warble a bit.)

(This box does not slave to MIDI Clock, so I could not test it. However, with ACID as the Master MIDI Clock source, my drum machine and two other hardware sequencers slaved just fine.)

Out of curiousity, why are you working this way? Is there something that the Roland does that cannot be done in ACID standalone?

Peter

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS

Reply by: Vondo333

Date:12/4/2007 6:47:11 AM

Thanks again for your response.
There are songs that I have created on the Roland that are a part of a project that I am working on, and since I am trying to do everything now in AP6 I simply want to transfer the songs over to AP6, and get on with the creation of the rest of the project.

I would like to have the ability to manipulate the tracks once the songs are transfered over for mix down and mastering.

No matter how I have tried to work it, (AP6 as master, or AP6 as slave I have noticed the steady and persistent lag about half way through the song.

I wish that all I was getting was a little warbling. That I can fix.

I will keep plugging at this, because I need to be able to use these two items together from time to time.

Thanks again for your help
Vondo333

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS UPDATE

Reply by: Vondo333

Date:12/7/2007 8:21:19 AM

Hi, here is an update on my recording lag problem.
I took your advice Peter, and connected the MV-8000 to my Firewire 410 audio interface via pipe light, and low and behold the AP6 as master seems to be very happy about that. There is a slight bit of warbling, but considering the alternative I can live with it.

Thanks again for all your help!

Vondo333

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS UPDATE

Reply by: BradlyMusic

Date:12/7/2007 9:00:50 AM

Hi Vondo......just out of curiosity since there is more ways then one to skin a cat, and sometimes one way works better than the other.

I know that some of the Roland outboard DAWs have built in CD recorders. Is it possible to just burn a CD of the individual tracks to .Wav format and then import them manually into Acid?

This way you don't have to worry about ANY syncing related issues. The Roland will save the sample rate into the .Wav files, and then Acid will import them with the imbedded sample rate.

I just did a search and it looks like the MV-8000 has a built in CD burner. So my suggestion would be to render everything to seperate audio tracks in the MV-8000, then just save them to .Wav and burn to a CDrom. Then put the CDrom into your PC and import into Acid. This will give you NO sync related issues.

P.S.....doing more reading on the MV-8000. I looks like .Wav files can be imported/exported via USB. You might be able to just connect the MV-8000 to the USB port of your PC and import that way.

One note: If you're sequencing using samples on the MV-8000 you will first need to render any sequenced tracks to an audio track.

Subject:RE: FIXING TIMECODE LAG PROBLEMS UPDATE

Reply by: Vondo333

Date:12/7/2007 2:58:09 PM

Thanks for your response Bradly,
It's funny how when we are in the midst of the problem we don't think about the many solutions.

You are very right about the USB export feature. "Duh", I'm not sure about turning tracks individually into .wav's, but they can be turned into .mp3 files and then exported, but I am sure there are other ways of doing this that I didn't think about being so busy looking at the problem.

Thanks for the solution jump-start!
Vondo333