What settings should I use for it to be without subs until the user selects them with the remote?

You can set the project properties to initially set the subs off by setting the default language to none, but I've had this not make any difference on some players.

I've found it more reliable in practice to also turn the subs off with the link that's the end action for the first play video, and that's what I usually do -- under end action set subtitle track to off. This can be fooled if someone skips to the menu -- while you can turn off the remote buttons for the intro, stopping and starting the DVD will often skip the intro and may clear the setting from memory.

Personally I think it's the least intrusive, & I don't like to have subs automatically on because if the viewer's hearing impaired, they usually have subs off to view CC (which is turned on/off at the TV). I don't like to change people's settings -- let them do it, so they know they did it.

You can get around dumping memory etc. from stopping the DVD by setting the subs off with the link from the menu to the video, but if someone wants them on, they'll have to turn them on each time they click on the button(s) for the video. The same thing happens if you attach a script to the start menu to turn subs off.

Many retail movie DVDs have a separate menu to turn subs on/off, and while that's really simple to set up, to the user it's most times easier to hit the subtitle button on their remote if/when they want them on. If you're hearing impaired, I'd guess that you probably know that button by heart.

I re-rendered a project to hdd to double check, looking at it & another couple of projects created with/without DVDA, and the SPRM (register) the player uses to store the subs on/off setting seems only set in the DVD's scripting -- I could be wrong, but long story short, don't see a lot of alternatives.

So inthat case, subs woudl be on during the intro media and then off after that. Might be kind of confusing?

Can't have subs with the intro media, so even if on, there's nothing to show.

Probably more trivia than you'll want/need, but FWIW...
I can't recommend it since it probably involves breaking a few laws & regs, but a lot of folks reverse engineer retail DVDs to see basically how they work, or more precisely, how the top-end software works. You might get some valuable insight using PgcEdit to trace thru DVDs when/if the law allows, i.e. that you have the rights for.

There's a variable that's set in the player that the player remembers or keeps track of for subs. The scripting that makes a menued DVD work has several variables that can be used. In a nutshell: a DVD can set a variable for subs, then set the player's sub variable to match, & it can do the reverse, setting a variable to match the player's, then work with that.

In the scripting reading the player's variable to determine the subs setting is usually I think used for keeping track of things for resume & menu options -- not much it could accomplish otherwise. For example you can set the end action of a title video to a dummy menu holding scripting... This scripting can read the player's sub variable, and based on that, direct the flow to a specific menu.

Setting the player's variable for subs is valuable when/if you have subs in different languages, since there is no standard saying for example the 2nd sub stream is always French.

Authoring software like DVDA uses boilerplate scripting that's always there, just modified according to your settings for whatever project. Because you *might* use subs with different languages, or might want to include a default sub track, the player variable for subs is always set by the DVD DVDA produces. [at least this is my understanding after checking DVDA DVDs etc.]

So... it's not just a matter of leaving the player setting as is, but rather what are you going to set it to. If someone never uses subs, they might not even know there's a subtitle button on their remote. Someone who uses them probably does. Turning them off might be safer.

Hmmm
Intro media are capable of showing subs.
If I hit the subtitle button on a settop player during intro media, it will show subs. There the default is off.

Conversely, there are 2 PCs here: 1 with Power DVD v5 and other with 6 that always shows subs of my DVD when I put it in.
I have Power DVD 6 on my pc and it defaults to off.
Soooooo.....??

Well Rich, if it is DVD legal to put subs on intro video -- & I've never seen it -- if you're mastering the DVD, Don't put them there. ;?P

I don't know what to say about a stand-a-lone player -- maybe some will show them, maybe some won't, but I've almost always left it turned on from testing, & have never seen intro subs viewing several hundred, perhaps more retail movie DVDs. But again I'd think the point is moot, since if you're designing the DVD it's your option to include subs or not on the intro.

RE: The default being off, I guess I should have explained better, or maybe left out all the trivia... 2nd try: a DVD player will usually hold onto it's subtitle settings, on/off & language. If a DVD doesn't change the player settings, & no one changes the settings in the player's set-up menus, then it will always stay that way... So if a player has a DVD inserted & has subs off, either that's the way it was, or the DVD turned them off.

The DVD can change the player's sub settings thru scripting... Scripting can be placed at the very beginning of the DVD, before or after any video or menus, and dummy menus and video are often used to hold scripting (not unlike separate functions coding). So a DVD can set the player as soon as the DVD is read (before the intro), & before or after any menu or video. [in pre & post commands] You can set a 1st read script in DVDA, placing your sub setting before anything happens, so in theory they would be off before the intro, but I'd want to trace it out before I used it because it might come before DVDA sets it's default. I've never tried it because I've never used intro vid subs, so clicking on the end action drop down box is easier.

Now some authoring software will put down a default set of scripting that's always there, on every DVD with a menu sort of thing. In my experience with DVDs including subs, DVDA sets the subs in the chapter menu for the 1st VOB set before the flow gets around to displaying the intro vid & the 1st menu -- the VOB-set where it normally likes to put all it's menu-related BS. To verify please use PgcEdit in Trace mode on a DVDA DVD with subs on hdd.

When a DVD tries to set the player re: subs, the option to leave things alone doesn't always apply, depending on the player -- you may have already changed the player default. Since player behavior is unpredictable to some extent (I know of 2 players - one hardware, 1 software -- that don't let the DVD set subs on/off), and since testing on every player made is impractical, I take the side of caution, assume DVDA set subs on, & turn them off again. If in doubt, simply test the DVDA DVD w/subs without turning subs on or off in DVDA & see what happens.

"Conversely, there are 2 PCs here: 1 with Power DVD v5 and other with 6 that always shows subs of my DVD when I put it in.
I have Power DVD 6 on my pc and it defaults to off.
Soooooo.....??"

Right click on the video window, & turn subs on or off... For versions 3 - 7 that setting will be retained -- be that way every time you open the program.

Please remember though that even given the $2.99 retail price of the OEM CD, not everyone out there has Power DVD. ATI, Nero, Roxio, WinDVD etc. all behave somewhat differently.

"In my experience with DVDs including subs, DVDA sets the subs in the chapter menu for the 1st VOB "

So are you saying DVDA sets them "on"?

"I take the side of caution, assume DVDA set subs on, & turn them off again. If in doubt, simply test the DVDA DVD w/subs without turning subs on or off in DVDA & see what happens."
This again sounds like DVDA sets them on.
But where in DVDA is there a setting to to turn subs on or off?

I also notice a DVD start script option in Project properties. is this where a subtitle script might go?

I guess we all should know what exactly DVDA is doing out of the box before we get into countering what we think might be happening.
Hey Sony, let us know.

""In my experience with DVDs including subs, DVDA sets the subs in the chapter menu for the 1st VOB "
'So are you saying DVDA sets them "on"?"

Yes... In some players I've tried, regardless the default settings, DVDA DVDs turn subs on. DVDA by default sets the subs in that location (given as a starting point). Download and start PgcEdit from Videohelp.com, then open a DVDA DVD w/subs and step thru PgcEdit's Trace mode. Most of the commands are commented enough, with references to on-line descriptions, that you shouldn't have too many problems spotting what's going on where.

"But where in DVDA is there a setting to to turn subs on or off?"

As in earlier posts, there is a setting in the project settings, or it can be done at any action [link, end action etc. where you have an Action tab]. It can easily be done with scripts, but there is a *Gotcha*. DVDA doesn't let you insert both pre & post commands, and has a lot of default scripting already, so I've found thru experience whenever you add scripting in DVDA check and double check that it works testing outside DVDA.

"I also notice a DVD start script option in Project properties. is this where a subtitle script might go?"

Yes, this was the very first read script I was talking about. I've never used it for subs because as I said I've never used subs with the intro video, so even if they're on there's nothing to display, and the viewer doesn't notice anything, nor should they expect subs in the intro video since I've never seen it done. If I was going to try it I'd test to make sure that this 1st script wasn't followed by the default command DVDA inserts for setting subs.

"I guess we all should know what exactly DVDA is doing out of the box before we get into countering what we think might be happening.
Hey Sony, let us know."

It would be nice but don't count on it.
1st off I don't think that the majority of their customers would be interested -- it's just the market for DVDA. Then there's the DVD spec NDA, so you can't produce a handbook of sorts like you see with programming languages. I don't think any company is going to write down a specific list of product limitations that might encourage prospective buyers not to make a purchase. And finally, no one else does, though the discussions at the DVDLab Pro forums can come close.

There's a big abstraction layer with DVD authoring software like DVDA or Encore or Sonic products. When you check a box in authoring software for example, that can be translated into scripting that in turn is converted into hex values that are read by player electronics. You see a nice simple check box. Most folks like that simple check box, preferring it over having to learn more and deal with more options.

Generally DVDA is pretty decent comparred to the alternatives, and has IMHO the best handling of sub tracks in it's market range. It lacks CC support like Encore or DVDLab Pro, & I'd love to see them add it. It lacks support for either Pan & Scan menus or more than 1 menu aspect per project -- I'd love to see them add that. And it lacks what are called Stories or Chapter Play lists, where you can edit which cells are played for a title video -- I'd love that too, but you can very easily do this after the fact in PgcEdit... I'd think that feature alone would increase DVDA's popularity a LOT [just for home use think of cutting commercials from recordings without editing]. For pros and semi-pros I think it's surpassed or come close to surpassing angles.

1) "there is a setting in the project settings"
Are you talking about "initial subtitle track" in properties tab? If setting this to "off" would do the trick, that's what I would do.

2) Do you have a subtitle off script that could be used in that DVD start script location?

"Are you talking about "initial subtitle track" in properties tab? If setting this to "off" would do the trick, that's what I would do."

Yes, set this to off...
I also set the subs off with the intro vid because testing on one DVD player this alone didn't do the trick. I can't say how many players would be effected -- maybe only this one and maybe it was some sort of quirk -- but I normally set subs off with the intro vid just in case... Maybe it's a waste of time/effort, but I always figure on "Whatever can go wrong, will".

"2) Do you have a subtitle off script that could be used in that DVD start script location?"

First create a new script by going to the scripts tab and clicking the icon for Insert DVD Script (the only icon available). 2nd, click the NOP command that's created, then go to the properties window and set Command to SetStreams. Expand Command, and in the lines below it set Subtitle Track to Off. Change the name of the script if you want -- the default = DVD Script 1. Wherever you want the script placed, use the dropdown box in properties to select DVD Script 1 (or whatever you've named it). For a first start script you select it in the project properties dialog box. After saving I suggest rendering the DVD to hdd and testing.

Beyond that scripting gets complicated fast, so I wouldn't suggest going any further than that single statement script right off the bat.

At this point I have a 1 sec black clip with subs off end action before the normal intro media. So it should prevent subs from being displayed on the intro. I also have the initial subtitle track in properties set to off.
Should cover it, no? I think I'll check it out oiin a store. Seems like I was having varied sub display behavior last time I checked the DVD at a store..
FWIW, After contacting Cyberlink about Power DVD 5 and 7 defaulting to subs on, the claim is that it is a problem with (some)DVDs that have a separate subtitle file and that the new build of Power DVD 7 fixes it. Hmmm. Separate subtitle files? Is this handled differently on different DVDs?

Well..back from the store. From my limited units to test on, the following units defaulted to displaying subs..even when I attached a "subs off" end action to black clip before the visble intro media. (And yes, they played the intro media subs)

Toshiba 19hlv87
Sharp LC19DV224
Toshiba 23HLV87

Strangely, these are all LCD/DVD player combo units. I did not see this on portables.

I was able to get a hold of a remote for the 23HLV87 and when I shut off the subs, they stayed off when navigating to separate movies.

So..i'm not convinced the subs off end action has any effect. I also had the project properties subtitle default set to off.

I tested other commercial DVDs and did not see subs.

I guess I'll try the script approach.

So..I think we need some answers here on why DVDA titles behave differently.

*IF* you want to do a bit of experimentation -- you certainly aren't afraid of work :?) -- here's something you might be interested in trying.

Use PGC edit on the DVDA produced DVD on your hard drive. On the left start by going to the chapter menus [labeled ChapterM]... Select one and on the right you'll see a lot of scripting... look for a line that's similar to this: "(SetSTN) Set Sub-picture stream = gprm(0)" & delete it, repeating for all chapter menus. Then go into trace mode in PgcEdit and step through the DVD, looking for any more occurances that include "Sub-picture stream", deleting those too. Save the DVD and try it.

In theory what you're doing is getting out of the business of deciding whether subs should be on or off... If the viewer's player has subs on, cool -- if subs are off, cool. If the player mis-behaves, cool. Your DVD had no effect. This won't work if you've got a subtitle switching menu, but otherwise it shouldn't effect anything else.

I had teh start script to turn subs off aned still no luck. The combo unit showed the subs.
I'm starting to think it's a matter of a few players having a problem dealing with however DVDA includes subs.
If DVDA was forcing subs on, why wouldn't the majority of players show subs?